Log of OOC Meeting - 2020/06/27

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Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:51 am

Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:38 am

Kinaed states, "A reminder of the OOC Chat Pact: Regardless of what we discuss, we understand and
truly believe that everyone on TI does the best they can, given what they know at the time, their
skills and abilities, the resources available, and the situation at hand. We will be respectful of
this and each other at all times."

Sparkles chuckles at Kuzco.

Kinaed states, "Today's Agenda is:

- Staff Updates
- Player Heartbeat
- Player Topics

Is there anything anyone would like to add to the agenda to make certain we discuss it today? If you
register a topic, please pre-write it so you're ready to present it when called upon."

Sparkles claims, "I have a topic."

(visnet) Player Arlen: All

Condensation states, "Something small here, too."

Kinaed says, "I have Sparkles and Condensation"

Temi gives a leather tome embossed with the title "A History of Grain" to preposterous.

Kinaed questions, "Anyone else?"

Kinaed claims, "Okay, I'll kick off Staff Topics."

Kinaed claims, "Last week, I did some investigation into some policy where a few players who are not
getting on well. I eventually decided that the stuff included therein wasn't policy stuff, just two
people not getting along, and requested those people do not interact ICly or OOCly. Then some
following on stuff after that."

Kuzco nods.

Kuzco says, "Question"

Kinaed states, "I also received another report about a player potentially being Erika, but it's not
resolved. What we have done, however, is banned some additional cloud proxies. So, if you're caught
up in that and aren't Erika, it's fine - just email Kinaed.ti@gmail.com and I'll check you via
Discord and give you pass."

Kinaed finishes abruptly, "Actually, come tot hink of that - it seems that some of our passes may
not be working, so I'm asking Az to look at that as a priority for Condensation (if his topic is
related to that)"

Kinaed says, "Okay, so that's pretty much what came across my desk last week. Sitting on my desk
this week is still turf wars. Haven't had much time to get deeper on it. Haven't had a lot of
feedback on the forums where the specification is posted, but please have a look and respond if you
want to help shape the way it's done."

Kinaed claims, "That's it for me.."

Kinaed queries to Temi, "Az is AFK, want to update us?"

Condensation states, "It isn't, no."

Temi nods.

Kinaed nods at Condensation.

Kinaed says to Condensation, "Very sorry about that."

Preposterous states, "I think Kuzco had a question."

Kinaed says, "Oh, I'm sorry Kuzco. Scrolling back to check."

Kuzco states, "It's fine, I just said 'Question'"

Temi states, "I've been keeping pretty busy, but trying to keep up with everything. I've been
processing the big plots, and I know we want to be working towards a conclusion on that"

Temi states, "So if I've stuck it to needs input, please make sure to take a look and get any of the
additional info in"

Kinaed nods at Temi.

Puck queries, "Turf Wars, Take 2 link on the forums: https://ti

Kinaed queries to Kuzco, "What was your question?"

Temi says, "And next weekend, starting on Wednesday, I'll be out for July 4th camping, and have no
internet connection again until Sunday night, possibly late, so make sure to get anything you need
stuff from me on to me with time to handle it on Tuesday"

Kinaed nods at Puck.

Kinaed smiles at Temi.

Venge declares, "Have fun camping Temi!"

Kinaed says to Temi, "I hope you enjoy the break."

Temi pontificates, "And that should be pretty much me. - Hope to!"

Yinadele declaims, "Good luck, Temi! Have fun!!"

Kuzco asks of Kinaed, "You made a request of non contact to two players who had not broken policy.
If they do establish contact, contrary to your request, is that a breach of policy?"

Kuzco declares, "(and yeah, have fun T!)"

Kinaed states to Kuzco, "There was blackballing and potential harassment in play, so I wouldn't say
they didn't break policy. I would definitely consider it an issue if they disobeyed staff on our
control measures for that, yes."

Kuzco says, "Got it, that's all, thanks =)"

Chipotle moves suddenly, breaking from her hiding spot.
Chipotle claims to Temi, "Don't burn marshmallows."

Temi says to Chipotle, "Do you know what's good? Roasting rice crispy treats over a campfire."

Kinaed trails off, "Okay, let's see. I'll check the changes board real quick..."

Chipotle drats as their OOC steps become audible. "It seems I've spooked myself and everyone else."

Kinaed says, "Just bug fixes, nothing big."

Yinadele says, "I would like to also add an opinion to that."

Violet declaims, "You know what's better? -Eating- what you roast over a campfire! :D :D"

Temi nods in agreement with Violet.

Phoenix exclaims, "Nomnom. happy camping temi!"

Kinaed muses, "Okay, that's all for Staff. Next up - Player Heartbeat. :) How was the game this

Kieran claims, "Pretty good, mostly."

Someone pontificates, "I think i wrote like... four or five recos? I would say that says it all!"

Venge declares, "I've been extremely distracted by the new Rimworld DLC but it's been amazing

NotNaomi claims, "A bit rough, honestly."

Yinadele says, "Pretty good! I had one small thing to say that's a little relevant to heartbeat."

Kieran states, "Though I'm starting to realize that the RP culture here is abit different than what
I am used to."

Condensation says, "Pretty rough and tiring."

Kuzco states, "Thanks to all players who came to the ST, me and Sparkles had a blast"

Violet declares, "Good! Thank you everyone who participated in the wedding event we held yesterday"

Preposterous declares, "Thank you for having it!"

Kinaed comforts NotNaomi.

Anonymous states, "Ive been having trouble getting some people to reply to me, but thats an IC
issue, so its fine. Wish there was some way to know what happene din that ST though"

Jennifer claims, "Agreed, but it was invitation only"

Kuzco declares, "There is a rumor!"

Chipotle says, "I've been meaning to write a rec or three related to the ST event but I have been
distracted by OOC :sweat_smile:"

Temi gives a leather tome embossed with the title "A History of Grain" to monky.

Kuzco states, "But yeah maybe I could do more"

Preposterous queries to Kieran, "Meaning?"

Anonymous claims, "Rumors can be true or false, or not give the information"

Phoenix claims, "A little difficult, things feel repetitive, but I believe it's on me"

Condensation states, "Can say that twice, Anon."

Kuzco claims, "Anyways I'll do another ST later on in a few months"

Yinadele states, "TI is a relatively small game, playerbase wise. I am fine with an OOC
communications ban, but I feel an IC one hurts roleplay and makes it harder players around them.
I've seen this in other cases and places as a stopgap measure, and usually it ends up falling
through, and requiring staff sortout due to invariable 'crossover'."

Kinaed questions to Kieran, "How is the RP culture here different, I'm curious?"

Kieran says, "Well, here most people don't follow a pose order unless requested."

Kinaed states to Yinadele, "That may well be how it ends up. However, I don't feel like I have
enough cause to take deeper measures towards either player at the moment."

Kinaed nods at Kieran.

Kieran states, "Everywhere else I've RPed, it's the opposite."

Kinaed says, "Interesting."

Kieran states, "So I'm struggling with that a bit."

Yinadele nods! "Thank you!"

Kieran says, "I get skipped a lot in scenes."

Kinaed comforts Kieran.

Kinaed states, "You can request people take turns simply by typing 'turns'."

Someone states to Kieran, "There is no shame in asking for turns if the scene is centered around
you. Or just taking it from bigger scene to smaller one."

Jennifer claims, "It's not intentional. It's more just in ig scenes, it's unwieldy to follow a
strict turn order, unless requested."

Violet says, "I'm sorry to hear that, Kieran. Don't be afraid to use the 'turns' command or
encourage folks over osay"

Anonymous states, "The reason for that is probably because people pose at different rates. I tend to
have lightning fast poses unless its a super tense scene so I end up waiting for others; though I do
try to wait for people's replies"

Kuzco shows you how it looks

[TURNS]: Kuzco requests all RP partners take turns.

Preposterous states, "I think it truly depends on how many are in the scene. Sorry you are feeling
skipped, though. Have to say, I have only had a couple of scenes with you, but they have all been
relatively small."

Condensation states, "It's way tough to even get noticed at times, I know."

Venge claims, "Yeah the smaller the scene the more likely turns are gonna be respected. In
events/scenes about 4ish it's more of a free for alll pose wise"

Kieran states, "I could, and I might. It's just different for me. I write out poses intended to tell
a story, rather than just have dialogue. I haven't bothered to increase my pose speed until now,
because most people elsemu understand, and take their time too."

Venge states, "(without the command)"

Chipotle states, "I will say that in public scenes especially, the 'scene' is actually a few
separate threads that are not always 'the same scene.' If it's ever bothering you, though, people
are required to be receptive to the turns command though, yep! And, sometimes people are just
missing your RP; you could try to get someone's attention if they seem to be unintentionally
ignoring you."

Chipotle states, "*is often actually"

Venge exclaims, "Page command is great if you think somebody missed something!"

Sparkles muses, "That might be a difference in RP too, we tend to be more ... maybe interacting than
story writing?"

Someone states, "ON the speed note, most people in public scenes will want to move fast though. If
there are 5 people, we are waiting turns, and everyone is taking 5 minutes or so, that's 20 minutes
between posing for each person."

Kieran states, "I'll keep that in mind, thanks, It's just taking some time for me to get used to."

Kinaed smiles.

Someone says, "What you do in private though, just whatever everyone is happy with."

Kinaed states to Kieran, "I hope it becomes comfortable."

Chipotle declares, "I definitely understand, and I appreciate you reaching out about it!"

Kinaed nods at Chipotle.

Kinaed queries, "Any other thoughts about the game at the moment?"

Kuzco claims, "Yeah, remember it's the dead of winter and keep it in account in your rp"

Kinaed asks, "Anything shitting anyone that isn't a topic for the moment?"

Someone states, "I think money is too easy right now on average, not much pressure to "seek more" of
it, but that's it."

Chipotle states, "I made dumplings because I was feeling sad, and then I fried them in sesame oil,
and they were really good."

Venge trails off, "Oh! Just like to remind people that... Invite command is still a thing"

Kuzco claims, "And yeah, once again, a reminder: don't answer to rumors as if it was a conversation
-- do a retelling"

Kinaed nods at Someone.

Anonymous declaims, "Nooooo my assets!"

Jennifer queries, "Oh yeah, just a PSA, if you notify yes to someone, receive their messenger,
please remember to send one back or something? Instead of leaving that person waiting forever and
ever amen?"

Kinaed says, "Interesting comment. :)"

Kinaed queries, "I think that may vary a bit by social class though?"

Phoenix claims, "I disagree about the money but maybe thats because i spend it all on tasty rumors"

Someone states, "Even as freeman that is 200+ silver/week."

Condensation states, "Thanks, Kuzco. Part of my topic."

Someone states, "For just being active."

Kuzco nods.

Violet says, "Only if your assets are good for city report"

Condensation claims, "I'll scrap that bit now"

Chipotle claims, "... I don't think they should be required to send back a messenger, no. That's an
IC decision @jennifer. That said... @someone, for brand new accounts money is pretty hard to come by
unless you slam all your XP into assets."

Phoenix wonders, "Maybe increase the house tax? this way new players dont get hurt as much? but
maybe this way people wont buy houses lol"

Sparkles says, "Also if you don't want to pay for rumours Bards can tell them to you for free."

Kinaed states, "I'll add the ease at which people are 'earning' money to staff discussion. We're
probably not going to meet this week or next week though."

Jennifer claims, "I like how it is now though. I mean as sparkles said, it's based on city metrix,
so it won't always be soe asy to get via asset."

Violet states, "I'd say from my end I've really struggled to earn money, in part because I wasn't
smart enough to load assets on this character from the beginning."

Someone says, "It may be just me! I like when people feel fire under their feet to make ends meet a
bit. Pushes them to not orthodox decisions."

Kieran says, "I do think adding a feature to pay for a return message would be neat."

Jennifer claims, "Especially when it goes fast, dependent on whether you craft, if you have house
expansions, all that sort of thing that require silver."

Venge claims, "It definitely feels very awkward to earn money with just the standard T1 asset."

Violet claims, "Because I wasn't savvy as a cyan, I'm still paying the penalty in my coinpouch"

Kieran says, "So like, if I send you a message, I can pay two silver so you can send me one in
response for free."

Chipotle claims, "I think just having more things to spend money on, that are worth spending money
on, is what would make me happy. Houses are the biggest sink."

Puck nods.

Yinadele states, "I'd like to note that Assets are very hard on new players"

Kieran states, "I'm working on adding that."

Temi claims, "Some concepts definitely require more money than others."

Kinaed muses to Violet, "Did you ever get your free assets?"

Venge claims, "Especially because it also makes it more difficult to get more asssets to increase
that gain later down the line as well. So.... you start poor and you stay poor."

Jennifer states, "That's what I mean though, and the amount of money you make varies from week to
week, dependent on metrix."

Anonymous states, "I would very much like the ability to send a reply to a messenger even if I had
to pay for it. Even without knowing who sent it"

Phoenix queries, "Oh i actually have a topic if i can still bring something up?"

Anonymous claims, "The ability to do that would have saved me SO MUCH TROUBLE in the past"

Kuzco claims, "It's true that it's virtually impossible to be unable to pay taxes, for instance"

Chipotle says, "Assets, as well, are super easy for second characters and extremely difficult for
first characters."

Kieran claims, "Adding that, to note, as in selling journals for people to write in."

Yinadele claims, "And that everyone who can buy assets in cgen are really earning literally 0.25x or
lower what someone who bought their assets in chargen earned"

Kinaed claims to Phoenix, "Yes, I've added you to the list."

Preposterous claims, "Be a crafter, like a tailor. You wouldn't say that anymore. Even high cooking
recipes are very expensive."

Venamelia says, "The problem I would have with that is that sometimes I need to speak to someone
else first before I can give an answer, or look for an IC letter (or a few)."

Yinadele claims, "I'd like to back Violet- I got and set up my free asset and earned VERY little."

Jennifer states, "Agreed proposterous"

Kinaed says to Phoenix, "Please pre-type your topic so you can send it when called upon to introduce

Jennifer claims, "Like if you're a crafter, money goes super fast."

Violet claims, "Kin- on this character, yes! Just aligned with inverse metrics that have -not- been

Yinadele states, "I managed to resolve it through IC means, but it's very much that after character
generation... You have to HAVE money to make more money."

Yinadele states, "Because you can't spend XP on it."

Monky says, "I had no idea how assets worked and I somehow lucked out."

Anonymous states, "Some metrics will just never be low because of how the game is set up and the
theme. I've never once seen piety below legendary for instance"

Kieran claims, "That's true."

Yinadele claims, "And it's a LOT of money if you have a T1 asset."

Kinaed states, "I think I'll have to re-read the log of this section of the OOC Chat to make sure
I've caught everyone's comments and understand them."

Kieran says, "I'm a gentry and I'm dirt poor."

Someone states, "OH i saw piety waaay below legendary ha."

Kinaed claims, "For the time being, I'll ask staff to review this log when we meet and discuss the

Someone claims, "So maybe just not in recent times."

Preposterous states, "Piety has been below legendary, just not... recently."

Sparkles states, "That's sort of why I feel Assets should come before Class in chargen."

Yinadele says, "I've never seen Piety below legendary in the past 4 OOC months."

Venge claims, "I'd also like to say that the helpfiles are not particularly helpful with some
things. And can be hard to parse."

Monky claims, "Piety being legendary isn't necessarily because of the game"

Kuzco claims, "The order has been performing well"

Monky says, "That's because of IC stuff"

Yinadele claims, "Yeah."

Condensation has returned from IAW.

Puck claims, "I'd like to see more incentives for spending money, either "necessities" or expanded
options for unique and expensive "perks" beyond phome expansion goals."

Venge states, "When I was making an actual asset it was... hmm. A lot of trial and error to set
things up the way I wanted."

Someone claims, "I mean, i remember piety when it was close to lowest tiers... that was

Yinadele states, "I feel like, honestly, new players really do not get enough XP as a weird

Temi has transferred phoenixdoll. [OOC]

Temi gives a leather tome embossed with the title "A History of Grain" to phoenixdoll.

Condensation claims, "You can always buy more items at the Guild. Hoarding is a great hobby."

Chipotle states, "Being a crafter is a character concept decision. Anybody can do that, sure - that
doesn't necessarily mean they make money, but I'll accept that. I do feel like assets are heavily
skewed against new players, however, and I think most people who know what they're doing will both
have the XP to max them, and make 3x-5x as much money, as any new player's first character."

Kinaed questions, "If we have help files that aren't helpful, please typo board us your questions
adn explain what you were looking for so we can improve the help file?"

Venge muses, "Maybe a free T2 asset as part of being gentry? @staff"

Violet declares, "^^ That would be smart!"

Venge states, "As I recall you used to get increased income as part of the gentry 'benefit'"

Yinadele claims, "I upvote this too."

Someone claims, "As gentry you can have more assets altogether."

Venge claims, "And that got lost when assets were introduced."

Chipotle claims, "I think gentry having a free t2 asset instead of a free t1 asset could make a lot
of sense, actually. You do get more 'base money,' though."

Phoenix says, "As a new player and crafter and someone who does a lot of tavern scenes, thus buying
a lot of food i dont need... i have 96 silver and 90 of that is promised. less money would kill me

Kinaed claims to Venge, "I'll add that to the Staff Talking points, albeit I admit it sounds like
it's going oposite the comment by Someone."

Condensation asks, "Doesn't that just push more people to making gentry?"

Someone asks, "And if you give more free money to gentry, why ever roll a freeman unless you want to
be full time southside?"

Puck says, "Respectfully, I think it's already very easy to be successful as a gentry character -
financially and otherwise."

Sparkles states, "This sounds like maybe it's at forum topic time."

Monky claims, "Yeah I agree it'd reduce the play of freemen unless you wanna be a Southsider."

Preposterous claims, "Gentry is already very popular."

Condensation says, "Like.. they already get way more max assets.. If you also give them a free tier

Kinaed nods at Sparkles.

Puck declaims, "(Still though: woot woot, Southies! \o/)"

Kinaed states, "It might make an excellent forum topic."

Kuzco says, "To marry for loooove"

Yinadele states, "But I think the problem is more with... Well. Asset distribution being difficult,
and new players getting a low amount of XP."

Anonymous claims, "There are currently 60 freemen charactersx and 42 gentry"

Kieran states, "I only had a fre t1 asset as a gentry when starting out."

Yinadele says, "Truthfully, I'd like it if freemen got more XP to start, too."

Puck asks, "Which topic, Kinaed?"

Kieran states, "Free."

Monky says, "On grid that's skewed though."

Preposterous queries, "Active?"

Venge claims, "Gentry on new players is the big issue I think. That's where new players really get
screwed over."

Anonymous claims, "Dunno about active, just going by census"

Monky states, "Lot less freemen on grid."

Yinadele states, "Census is VERY skewed."

Condensation claims, "I definitely know more Gentry than freeman.."

Kuzco states, "Deffo more active freemen than in the past"

Yinadele says, "Puck has a good point, though it is true I've seen a lot more than I did when I
first started."

Kuzco claims, "Now we need a male noble friend for Norrig =((("

Phoenixdoll flexes and chats "southside woo"

Kinaed trails off, "Okay, I'll create a forum topic about assets and wealth. Meanwhile..."

Venge says, "You have enough xp to purchase gentry and core skills. You *definitely* don't have
enough for a decent asset after that."

Preposterous says, "More than in the past, but how many of the new players make gentry? Quite a

Kinaed claims, "Let's move to Player Topics lest we fail to get through them today. :)"

Kinaed asks of Sparkles, "Won't you introduce us to your topic?"

Chipotle says, "Without kindness from older players and characters, my first character would have
been a pauper despite being gentry. *takes off asset hat, moves on*"

Preposterous asks of Kuzco, "Tired of being surrounded ny females?"

Sparkles states, "First, I feel super later to the party here, but I second the thanks on people
coming to the ST, I need to finish up my recs. For those interested, it's definately something you
could come ask me about ICly. "

Sparkles claims, "My topic is sort of related to things previously mentioned and I'm trying to
figure out how best to express this but it feels another week where I've been in scenes or
situations where osay seems to be getting used in perhaps not the best manners. And this, combined
with not always being on our 'best behavior' to cyans makes me worried on our kind of community
feel. And I admit given we'd all love new faces to see and would love to see some vital jobs filled,
I'd like to maybe put out a PSA about making sure we are feeling welcoming."

Chipotle sneezes loudly.

Monky states, "Indeed."

Monky nods.

Phoenix claims, "That surprises me to hear. I'm a new player, I've gotten other people into the
game, and while there has been some drama I just shrugged that off as personal relationships are
hard. "

Someone states, "I would also say that if a cyan writes about a guild entry, lets treat that with

Phoenix states, "Oh yea guild entry is living hell."

Kieran states, "That's kinda true."

Anonymous trails off, "@Someone I do that by default, but sometimes they just... stop logging in and
it stalls because they aren't on"

Condensation says, "Be a good reminder to also try welcome people you don't know into scenes you're
in. I've very often felt I walk into places where folk are going to start only jemoting with a
friend, while I'm uncertain who everyone in the room even is."

Kinaed nods at Condensation.

Kieran claims, "I beat people into my guild entry. Pulled teeth to make it happen."

Condensation states, "Kind of felt the fellow cyans have been more welcoming than the non-cyans, in

Someone claims, "I am not naming any names @Anonymous, but I have heard few who didn't even get back
on letter for few days."

Someone says, "Which can be discouraging"

Jennifer states, "Yeah, I try and include everyone, sometimes it doesn't work, but I do make a
concerted effort. Especially if I see, they're just sort of on their own, and not role playing with
another person in the room."

Kinaed states to Condensation, "Honestly, to a degree that's always been the case. I remember in
1999 when I joined TI, the older players all had friends and generally wanted to RP with each other,
and it was hard to get in and build relationships - except with other cyans. Then, because of
natural game progression, a lot of older players dropped off, and we became the elder players."

Kinaed says, "I do like the reminder to be inclusive, and I definitely am hoping that people use
osays the way they're intended to be."

Monky says, "Can always let Staff know if osays are out of rails"

Kinaed claims, "I do think some of the barrier for cyans integrating with older players is a bit
natural. However, if we see individuals with poor behavior towards cyans in general... let me
know... and know that I have had to have a conversation about that with at least one player a couple
of weeks back."

Preposterous states, "And, stick around a few. I haven't been on much this week, but I see a LOT of
walking into a room and turning around and walking right back out without pausing."

Kinaed claims, "Please don't let me know if it's one incidence, but if it's a continual pattern, I'm
happy to remind someone of how to use osays."

Venamelia claims, "I do kind of would like a function to turn off osay alltogether."

Monky muses, "I think ignore works for that?"

Condensation wonders, "Doesn't QUIET do that?"

Someone states to Kinaed, "It may be hard to players to know its repeat pattern though."

Phoenixdoll states, "Yeah, I've been actually writing an emote a few times at someone and they've
walked out of the room without rp."

Kinaed nods at Someone.

Preposterous claims, "Even if it's just a 'passing through' type emote, gives someone the
opportunity to stop or interact."

Venamelia says, "Ignore is player specific. Quiet does not, from what I saw. Could be wrong."

Condensation claims, "I like passing-through emotes. Writing them and receiving them. +1, prep"

Puck claims, "I feel like bringing Staff into it shouldn't be step 1 though. They've got a lot on
their plates already and by the time it can be addressed, it might be so far past the incident that
a reminder might just create a feeling of confusion or unease."

Kuzco nods.

Phoenixdoll states, "No quiet let's osay through"

Kuzco claims, "Agreed puck"

Kinaed says to Puck, "I think that's what I'm getting at."

Sparkles states, "That's why I thought I'd just make an overall PSA."

Puck says, "Maybe a help file that says 'please limit osay use' that can be anonymously assisted or
something, for people who aren't comfortable speaking up."

Preposterous says, "Read the bottom of 'help osay'"

Kinaed states, "To be honest, I'm struggling to keep up with my caseload on TI. Most complaints that
come to me aren't getting handled until the weekend, particularly if they're minor, not game-on-fire
things because, during the week, I'm in AEST and working."

Someone says OOCly, "I thought help osay already... yea."

Puck claims, "Oh nice. Well there you go. :D"

Kinaed states, "Also, a note: Azarial has informed me that Ignore does not affect osay."

Puck states, "L hat though, hee. Gonna typo that."

Puck starts writing a note. (This is an OOC action)

Preposterous states, "I tend to assist when it is getting out of hand or abused. It goes better than
asking to stop via osay."

Monky muses, "Interesting, help ignore says it does. Time to typo?"

Kinaed nods at preposterous.

GandalftheGrey claims, "I imagine you could script something up in your mudclient that would gag all
osays if you really wanted."

Puck finishes her note.

Kinaed says, "I think Preposterous' solution is a good one."

Jennifer states, "The thing is though, I agree limit osay, but at some point it's really needed.
Especially given you can't tell someone privately. Then osay is the one and only option."

Anonymous claims, "@gandalf I could probably do that on mudlet. Grab all the osays and muffle them
via some regex wizardry"

Someone states, "Osays are a must with new players especially. Otherwise some things would just
never be clarified as thye may not feel comfortable airing it on vis."

Jennifer claims, "Not even that, but sometimes it's pertinent to the scene, and so they have to use

Kieran states, "Honestly, the whole osay thing is another cultural thing for me."

Kinaed queries to Kieran, "What do you mean?"

Sparkles states, "The comment wasn't 'Don't use osays' however sometimes they seem to be getting
used for OOC snark."

Jennifer says, "And there are no other options, given that if you're confused in a scene, asking the
entire game about it would be aibt of."

Kieran says OOCly, "It's the only game that has an xp cost for using osay."

Kinaed nods at Sparkles.

Kinaed claims, "Ahh."

Monky states, "That's to limit the use of it"

Jennifer claims, "Well it was that way because we used to have tells."

Kieran claims, "Although, I've seen it abused in other games too."

Someone states, "It's like 5 exp though, so not end of the world."

Kinaed says, "It does stack up though, if you use it a lot."

Preposterous states, "I don't think anyone is saying osay used correctly is bad. It's when it is
used to crack jokes, or have unrelated conversations about someone's pets, or something, that it
isn't appropriate here."

Kinaed nods at preposterous.

Kieran trails off, "But what I do mean by that is, there are a lot of times when I enter a room, and
elsemu can do this plenty too..."

Yinadele declaims, "Remember osay is free in scenes with cyans!"

Kieran claims, "I find it strange for people to pose a reaction to me entering a room, if I haven't
made my intro pose yet."

Condensation queries, "I think it's only free for the cyan?"

Phoenix says OOCly, "Ive been in a scene where we all chatted through osay and its weird because -
it was really enjoyable. so i dont really get the issue. albeit i see how it can be distracting
especially if you cant turn it off"

Monky claims, "It's free for everyone in the room"

Kuzco says, "It does kill inmersion"

phoenixdoll says OOCly, "It's free if cyans are in the room for everyone."

Yinadele says, "I enjoy osay commentary and would not turn it off, but that is my opinion."

Yinadele declaims, "And yep, it's free for everyone in the room!"

Preposterous claims, "That has always been a pet peeve of mine. Posing at me instead of setting up
the scene so I know what I am walking into so I know how to react or behave."

Yinadele states, "I think players should have the option to turn it off."

Sparkles claims, "The point is to RP though ... not use it as an OOC chat room though."

Kieran says, "Yes, exactly. Please pose a set for players entering a scene, instead of posing
looking at them and greeting them, etc, if they haven't had a chance to pose their arrival."

Someone claims, "Yea, osay is really not a side-by-chatroom for commentary. And when its needed for
a scene, having it of could turn very badly."

Preposterous claims, "It just isn't the right place. Use discord or some other chat thing to chat,
come in game to RP."

Puck says, "There's kind of a split on what's preferable there, Kieran, Preposterous."

phoenixdoll says OOCly, "I actually thought I read somewhere that you should update your action and
do that somewhere.."

Kieran claims, "On the flip side, I've seen people arrive and immediately pose without waiting a few
moments for a set."

phoenixdoll says OOCly, "Or the ooc channel"

Puck states, "I personally prefer waiting a round to see what I'm walking into."

Kieran states, "Same."

Preposterous claims, "Update your action so people know what they are walking into, not to greet
someone who just arrived."

Puck says, "But I think like, the invite command specifically requires the invitee pose first now."

Temi nods.

Violet says, "AHHH!! I -really- prefer if people give me the chance to set the scene before
inserting themselves"

Venamelia claims, "It is my personal preference there. I really really find it distracting. I turned
visnet off for it, too. Doing a lengthy scene and being a slow poser, and then there is a lengthy
talk on visnet. The same is on scenes with osay."

Kieran claims, "So it feels weird when people pose at me. Like, I want to make sure there aren't
demons in the room before posing. Or whatever."

Puck nods.

phoenixdoll says OOCly, "You can use the ooc channel to chat, because folks can turn it off"

Anonymous claims, "Demons are thankfully very obvious"

Kieran claims, "Sure, but you know what I mean, I think."

Jennifer states, "Well I usually just go by people's actions."

Anonymous states, "Yeah I get it"

Chipotle trails off, "I've been a bit inactive here, but I'd like to say that I generally attempt to
pay attention to any and all cyans and focus on them if they're around (as the various cyan
helpfiles require us to do if they're not being RP'd at). I HOPE this is the norm. As for scene
being set or otherwise... I dunno guys, it kind of sounds like personal preference to me, though it
leans a bit strong in one direction. I like when people RP at me when I come into a room. It's
acknowledgement that I exist. It's best alongside action changes, obviously, but..."

Kieran says, "A trash can could be on fire, or... Something."

Jennifer says, "I walk in, check the actions, make sure it's not all terribly and obviously out of
date, and go in."

Phoenix questions, "Huh. i thought its impolite to just. stand there and do nothing. what am i
supposed to do when entering a scene?"

Preposterous claims to Kieran, "Exactly. I prefer people to set the scene before I enter. Always
bugged me when people greeted me before I have posed an arrival."

Kinaed states, "I think this issue is partly a matter of taste. For staff, we believe osay is
required, but don't see it as a 'fun' part of the game, more as a facilitator. I can tell some
people would prefer other people leave it there and otherwise stay off it. Maybe for now, it'd be
best to assume that if you're alone with a friend and use it for kicks, it's okay, but if you're in
mixed company, please be consentious that some people on TI are here for the immersion in RP and it
is immersion breaking."

Condensation nods.

phoenixdoll says OOCly, "I've never had any issue with politely asking folks to stop"

Kinaed smiles at phoenixdoll.

Kinaed trails off, "Okay, next up..."

Kieran claims, "Pheonix, personally in other games I've played, you'd either send a quick osay
saying "one moment, let me pose a set for you" or etc."

Someone states, "Though some peoplea are not comfortable to ask for that."

Kinaed wonders to Condensation, "Won't you introduce us to your topic?"

Kieran quiets for new topic.

Kinaed says to Someone, "Can't always help people who won't help themselves."

Condensation states, "Alright so.. After the earlier friendly reminder to not use rumour promotes to
answer a rumour, there is a more.. I guess delicate or troubling matter I would like to raise, I'd
like to raise some concern towards the entire rumour system not being used to promote any actual
specific rumour, but instead end up used to constantly, and quite incessantly, harass particular
players. If a rumour has started around a character, it more than makes sense that rumour will be
devoted towards commenting on that character. However, as an example - I wonder if anyone has even
noticed how there was a rumour regarding three new promotions within the Merchants' Guild. I quite
doubt that, because like with various other rumours -- not even only those about this Guild -- some
folk have started diluting those rumours with some bad-mouthing of a single individual. Not only
does this seem to make it impossible to start a rumour about anything mercantile, I do not see how
this makes any sense with this character being highly supported."

"It's good to see various spins on a story appear when a rumour has started, and this has provided
some fun talks and interactions, or even provided some fun hooks. But I find it kind of
disheartening to see this harassing start to happen on rumours whose topics had -nothing- to do with
this particular hatred or disapproval towards one specific person. I like(d) keeping up with rumour,
they help make feel the game more alive, the city more bustling and unique -- with a heart and mind
of its own -- but this has given it a real nasty flavour. That's about all I feel had to be said."

Kinaed claims to Condensation, "Can you report these rumors so staff can notice if there's a trend?
Something like 'I suspect this rumor is part of a harassment campaign' would help."

Kinaed claims, "It'll also take the rumor off the shelf until it can be reviewed."

Monky states, "I think it's fine to shift the topic of the rumor if it can be shifted that way, like
how negative rumors can be shifted into positive as long as it's still got to do with what's going

Condensation states, "Sure. That'd require some digging into all of which that happened to."

Violet claims, "I will say that think that ICly badmouthing adds a fair bit to the game, especially
when it reflects approval on guildleaders"

Sparkles queries, "I feel like that's a fine line where if any rumour about someone people don't
like is labeled a 'harassment campaign' how do you measure that?"

Someone claims, "While we post rumors as NPC its as important to then follow the mood of the game.
NPCs generally will not talk badly about a highly supported GL, that's part of why the metrics are

Violet claims, "Folks can try to warp rumors and then the people being affected by it can try to
warp it back"

Phoenixdoll claims, "Yeah, it's also breach of rumor policy to bad mouth a GL without it reflecting
approval of GL... Unless the event happened."

Condensation claims, "Which doesn't make sense when the Guildleader was 'Loved' a day ago."

Jennifer states, "Right and rumor spinning is definitely allowed and has been done. Both positively
and negatively."

Kinaed states, "Obviously, staff get cranky if we feel people are constantly reporting rumors that
aren't valid reports, but otherwise we're happy to look into it and I'm unaware of anyhting around
this recently, probably because of my previously admitted low attendence the past couple of weeks."

Condensation says, "And still happened while they were in high approval"

Kinaed nods at phoenixdoll.

Temi states, "We haven't necessarily been opposed to negative rumors or things taking a negative

Monky muses, "I think that GL is currently in the negative though no?"

Temi states, "But a constant way to make things that aren't about your enemy more griping about
them.. is not really appropriate"

Monky says, "I believe they have been for like the past couple of days"

Puck says, "I thought Condensation was saying a rumor about "Bob's wife had a baby!" becomes "Sally
(who is not Bob's wife) is SUCH a pain in the butt.""

Anonymous states, "I would like to point out that GL approval ratings can DRAMATICALLY shift over
the course of a single day"

Temi says, "If it is about them or their guild, I think it's definitely more fair game."

Condensation trails off, "No. They were positive only a day ago-and-a-half ago, and the fact why
they're dropping is kind of..."

Kinaed claims, "We generally check that rumors about GLs are realistic to the GL barometer, but we
also note that sometimes that's open for interpretation. Criticism of even well liked GLs is
generally okay, if there's a specific instance that warrants it, but general negativity wouldn't be
in line with the barometer, for example."

Monky states, "If someone made a rumor about a Knight failing an arrest then you shifted that to say
the arrest failed because my character didn't train them properly for example I think that's fair

Kinaed states, "Anyway, if in question, it's okay to report, and we'll let people know what we

Preposterous claims, "Help guildleader"

Monky says, "If the approval was in the negative, I mean"

Temi nods at monky.

Venge claims, "I do think that the amount of nastygrams in rumors has at times been somewhat

NotNaomi muses, "That plot effect is -still- hitting me, it seems... Is that normal?"

Chipotle claims, "I will say that it is important to separate 'player harassment' and 'IC dislike',
though. This sounds like 'x character is being targeted,' and that's not always a case of the player
being targeted. Sometimes it's just IC."

Condensation states, "Yes, Venge."

Kinaed nods at Chipotle.

Anonymous claims, "People have very long memories"

Puck questions, "If this is covered in the helpfile and I'm just dense, no prob, but - if you
personally have an issue with a GL but they're well-liked, are you not allowed to try tanking their
reputation with scurrilous gossip?"

Preposterous says, "It will give a little guidance on the metrics. And, I believe something was put
in a while back that doesn't make them tank so fast they can't react."

Phoenixdoll says, "I would also like to point out though that there could be IC reasons especially
for a GL to be targeted."

Chipotle claims, "If the character is being targeted for OOC reasons, that's different."

Violet queries, "I second Chipotle. Rumors -have- been a little vicious lately, but that is an IC
thing. At least, it should be?"

Kinaed claims, "Yeah, campaign harassment is generally one to two players picking on someone across
many rumors, not 8 players disagreeing with a rumor that seems promotional."

Anonymous says, "@puck I think you should be able to do that, if you set yourself as the source of
the rumor, so IC investigations can discover you're badmouthing someone. But you can't put your
dislike into the words of VNPCs, i don't think"

Kieran wonders, "I think if people are vicious for purely IC reasons, it should be mostly okay?
Generally, at least?"

Temi pontificates to Puck, "You need to keep your complaints about them to actual actions of theirs,
not to just general 'Down with Joe!' negative feelings"

NotNaomi says, "And yeah, I'm the person Condensation is talking about, I believe. It's been a bit
discouraging to see constant and incessant negativity, and I do think they're OOCly motivated."

Kieran says, "As long as it promotes an overall good story."

Condensation pontificates, "I don't see how any Merchant would want to host events or try keep this
guild in check, if any rumor even remotely about the guild gets turned into 'Lets bash this one
person down because they're in the same guild!'"

Monky states, "IC investigations can't find the source anymore"

Anonymous claims, "Hmm, well, scratch that then"

Monky states, "You can't RPA for the source"

Phoenixdoll claims, "If it wasn't a GL I'd be more like that's cooked yo, but while obviously plz be
ooc kind to GL and no ooc harass plz but.. Yeah. I'm gonna start cnoting all the awful nasty rumor
make on my gentry "

Monky states, "What you could do is write loads of flyers and papers in a book, tear out the pages
and spread them on grid about the GL"

Preposterous claims, "And a general plug that cnotes raise your RPXP."

Monky says, "Or anyone really"

Monky claims, "Post it in the Queen's, church, wherever. People can ICly investigate it "

Kinaed claims, "Okay, we're near the end of our hour, and we still have another topic to go. Please
let me know if you need a trans back, but we need to move ahead. Thanks for the heads up on this
one. Staff were pointed to rumor 48, but don't see anything weird or wrong about that, so please let
us know if there are more."

Kinaed questions to Phoenix, "Can you introduce us to your topic?"

Phoenix muses, "The roster list is huge and often I went to a store to find it empty. Maybe shrink
the list by closing inactive shops?"

Monky claims, "Might be useful for an inactive tag like players have"

Kinaed says, "Maybe a few different filters on roster - roster all, roster alone, etc."

Anonymous claims, "There are some pshops that are, for all intense and purposes, abandoned, since
the characters that own them stopped logging on"

Kuzco says, "Oh yes please"

Sparkles states, "I agree, also I admit I still mourn when Roster showed who owned/managed a shop."

Monky claims, "I agree that there should be a way to filter through"

Temi says, "NPC shops should always be filled. For PC shops, it's hard for staff to tell whether
it's active or not"

Kieran claims, "I really would prefer an option to like, search for items on obvious shops."

Preposterous claims, "I think roster has tripled in size since I came."

Phoenixdoll states, "Omg.. I spent like 2 hours wandering the grid being sad because there was
nothing in 70 percent of the places I visited last night. So yeah please."

Kuzco claims, "I loathe riding through town to get Yule gifts and finding out 3/4 of shops are
abandoned and have no stock anymore"

Anonymous states, "I can give you four names of abandoned pshops like right now lol"

Kuzco nods.

Kieran says, "Like, if I was looking for a particular item, being able to do like, "roster -search a
clay pot" would help a ton."

Sparkles says, "I have a suggestion for that, actually, Temi if it might help."

Puck claims, "Please consider constructive criticism and positive reinforcement of PC shops."

Kuzco suggests something like roster active

Temi wonders, "Does it involve us doing more work to keep on top of it?"

Sparkles states, "Directly, no."

Sparkles claims, "But might make it easier for people to report things that are abandoned."

Puck says, "It can be a pain to keep them stocked, it's easy to burn out as a crafter, and seeing
"this shop sucks" is a demotivator."

Puck grins.

Temi claims, "Just a shop being empty doesn't mean it will be empty tomorrow"

Monky states, "I liked the baking event that was set in a player shop."

Monky winks.

Venamelia muses, "Maybe having shops categorized by total number of items available for player shops
in an automatic system and to separate them from NPC shops?"

Preposterous asks, "Is there a time limit, like on houses, where if they don't log in they'll lose

Temi nods at preposterous.

Sparkles says, "I'll write the idea as a pboard if I can run it through my head as making sense."

Kuzco says, "Slap a rumor if you restocked"

Temi states, "Same thing as houses."

Temi claims, "Have to keep the taxes paid."

Kuzco claims, "Or mail rich dudes like nobles"

Someone states, "On another note, if you want stuff, talk to players rathar than trolling shops yo."

Anonymous wonders, "There's only one rich noble dude though kuzco. remember?"

Condensation says, "This. Yes."

Preposterous states, "Nobles can come in handy."

Preposterous coughs.

Kuzco says, "One MALE"

Anonymous claims, "I said dude"

phoenixdoll says OOCly, "I mean, sure.. But sometimes I don't know what I can have so I do like to
just go window shopping.."

Sparkles states, "He jokes like he's the one with the money."

Puck claims, "Dude is without sex or gender."

Puck pontificates, "(Says the Californian, an expert on the subject!)"

Temi grins.

Preposterous claims, "There are more nobles than just Norrig."

Anonymous states, "It's always been my understanding that dude is a casual form to refer to a man"

Monky claims, "Yes."

GandalftheGrey says, "Actually dudette would be the female form I think"

Kuzco claims, "Yes I forget =)"

Monky says, "We are going off topic tho"

Kuzco nods.

Jennifer claims, "No there is Norrig, and only Norrig forever and ever. Sorry I'm done. Sliping back
in to obscurity."

Temi states, "I think it's a divide on coasts - it has become more non-gendered on the west coast...
and is certainly a diversion from the important topic."

Kinaed says, "We're also at the end of our alloted time for the OOC Chat :) A bit over, even."

Phoenixdoll says, "Ty admins for your hard work"

Condensation questions, "Wait, there's others..?"

Monky states, "Beam me down kinny"

Puck says, "I like the idea of IC incentive for keeping shops filled. Might look into it a bit."

Kinaed says, "Thanks for attending this week's OOC Chat, everyone. I look forward to catching up
with everyone next week. :)"

Condensation claims, "Oh. One am already huh.. Time flies"

Puck waves.

Phoenixdoll declaims, "Ty!"

Venge pontificates, "Thank you for all your work staff!"

Kuzco states, "Remember to recommend each other"

Chipotle pontificates, "Everyone remember to be good to one another!"

Violet declaims, "Oh yes, recommend, spread love, hang out with new players!"

GandalftheGrey declaims, "Peace, love, and cookies!"

Monky claims, "Rollenspiel time"

Kinaed trails off, "Okay, transferring everyone back in 3..."

Kinaed trails off, "2..."

Kinaed trails off, "1..."

Jennifer pontificates, "Energize!"

Condensation claims, "I'd love to actually meet some folk outside of the same six I can get to emote
with me >.>"

Phoenix says OOCly, "Bye bye !"

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