The Queen of Theme?
Just want to put in a slight note the policing the theme isn't just the Admin and Cellan's job, it's down to everyone. Noone wants to play a game full of happy people, that's boring ; And noone wants to play a game full of nasty instigators, that that makes people bitter. If you think a section of theme is lacking, go out and fill that slot either with your character or make another. If you think there are to many happy characters, make a vitriole filled one and vice versa.
I'm frankly on repeat in these conversations, but it boils down to this: We don't know other people's RP. I don't think it's fair to critique whether or not a player is holding up theme or not - things happen behind closed doors, as others said, or you don't know the history/relationship between players. In Cellan's case, she's had past marriages to foreigners and her titles in another duchy - that's going to impact things. And noble apps are staff approved and overseen, so I think it's pretty gracious of her to take approval hits for it. Interracial marriages, particularly amongst nobles, are completely in theme - nobles marry for money and power for their houses, the rest is secondary.
I also don't really like hits on people that go for casual racism instead of blatant slurs and attacks. Just because the sort of racism that a player engages in isn't your type of racism, doesn't mean they aren't racist or that it's wrong or that it's out of theme. It's a different style. Both bring a lot of conflict to the game and different types of conflict. Reacting to the realization that people are only pretending to be friendly/tolerant to you is different than a bar brawl because someone calls you a slur. I'll never turn down a bar fight, but I appreciate the slow burn of the previous situation, too. And it's really unfortunate that because it's casual or based on one-on-one interactions, that it's not the sort of thing other people see, so it's really tempting to have those characters called to the rug for not playing by racist theme, when in fact, they do.
I think it's also a mistake to think one aspect of theme - in this case racism - overrides another aspect of theme that is hugely important. In this case, class. The current pbase has (or feels like it has) a considerable number of gentry and nobles. Power is almost entirely wielded along class lines and within the class breakdown, it's ranked by wealth. This is also emblazoned in the help files. Racism doesn't get to just trump class. There is and should be a conflict between the two and isn't an indication of broken theme. How far we swing between class or racism or any other important aspect of theme (the Church, the Monarchy, etc.) being the most important is in player hands. The game wouldn't be very exciting for anyone in roles in those major organizations and aspects of theme if the staff simply declared one the most important. Then there isn't any conflict.
And that means that characters have to decide which trumps things for their character and presents their characters with good, solid conflict: when that Tubori noble forces you to bow to them, do you comply and hate yourself for it or do you refuse and risk getting whipped? Either way you go there, there are lots of post-event reactions/scenes that can take place. And if you've got the kind of backing and support and network in game, it's possible that you could swing that situation so that race outweighs class. It's certainly happened in the past (not in that exact instance, but there are others I can think of). It's just a matter of getting the leverage for it.
I also don't really like hits on people that go for casual racism instead of blatant slurs and attacks. Just because the sort of racism that a player engages in isn't your type of racism, doesn't mean they aren't racist or that it's wrong or that it's out of theme. It's a different style. Both bring a lot of conflict to the game and different types of conflict. Reacting to the realization that people are only pretending to be friendly/tolerant to you is different than a bar brawl because someone calls you a slur. I'll never turn down a bar fight, but I appreciate the slow burn of the previous situation, too. And it's really unfortunate that because it's casual or based on one-on-one interactions, that it's not the sort of thing other people see, so it's really tempting to have those characters called to the rug for not playing by racist theme, when in fact, they do.
I think it's also a mistake to think one aspect of theme - in this case racism - overrides another aspect of theme that is hugely important. In this case, class. The current pbase has (or feels like it has) a considerable number of gentry and nobles. Power is almost entirely wielded along class lines and within the class breakdown, it's ranked by wealth. This is also emblazoned in the help files. Racism doesn't get to just trump class. There is and should be a conflict between the two and isn't an indication of broken theme. How far we swing between class or racism or any other important aspect of theme (the Church, the Monarchy, etc.) being the most important is in player hands. The game wouldn't be very exciting for anyone in roles in those major organizations and aspects of theme if the staff simply declared one the most important. Then there isn't any conflict.
And that means that characters have to decide which trumps things for their character and presents their characters with good, solid conflict: when that Tubori noble forces you to bow to them, do you comply and hate yourself for it or do you refuse and risk getting whipped? Either way you go there, there are lots of post-event reactions/scenes that can take place. And if you've got the kind of backing and support and network in game, it's possible that you could swing that situation so that race outweighs class. It's certainly happened in the past (not in that exact instance, but there are others I can think of). It's just a matter of getting the leverage for it.
I think the options are:
One: rewrite the helpfile, so it reflects the world. Dice nailed that. Probably the most sensible option.
Two: the staff enforces theme via 'approvals' or playing vnpcs/NPCs. I guess this would turn into a nightmare of accusations of favoritism, though.
Two-and-a-half: Just thought of this. What if there's a command that lets players temporarily step into the skin of 'a crowd of perfectly average citizens' and give approval or disapproval as them? Sort of 'vnpc approval', except instead of staff doing it, players do? So the unwashed masses have a majority voice, via players?
Three: the Monarch--and, for that matter, other lawful type GLs--be required to enforce theme. But who wants to be forced to play a xenophobic prick? Nobody. I'd stop playing a PC before I had to change his personality to comply with a helpfile.
Four: change nothing, sit back, and enjoy the fun!
Also ... xenophobia and racism have little to do with slurs and rumors. They're about power. So I couldn't disagree more with "Racism doesn't get to just trump class." Sure it does. A society in which wealthy Blues have public, social power over poor Greens is simply not exhibiting deep-seated xenophobia, intolerance, and god-given superiority against the Blues. Lithmore is a society with intolerance and deep-seated hatred of foreigners, in which the dominant ethnicity considers themselves superior as proved by God, and makes a concentrated effort to secure their authority over all others. If there are serious ramifications for acting in a xenophobic manner, you are not in a xenophobic society.
(That said, I think the theme itself is confused and contradictory about the intersection of race and class, which makes is tough for players to figure out. Which I think must be one reason for the sort of 'anything goes!' approach.)
One: rewrite the helpfile, so it reflects the world. Dice nailed that. Probably the most sensible option.
Two: the staff enforces theme via 'approvals' or playing vnpcs/NPCs. I guess this would turn into a nightmare of accusations of favoritism, though.
Two-and-a-half: Just thought of this. What if there's a command that lets players temporarily step into the skin of 'a crowd of perfectly average citizens' and give approval or disapproval as them? Sort of 'vnpc approval', except instead of staff doing it, players do? So the unwashed masses have a majority voice, via players?
Three: the Monarch--and, for that matter, other lawful type GLs--be required to enforce theme. But who wants to be forced to play a xenophobic prick? Nobody. I'd stop playing a PC before I had to change his personality to comply with a helpfile.
Four: change nothing, sit back, and enjoy the fun!
Also ... xenophobia and racism have little to do with slurs and rumors. They're about power. So I couldn't disagree more with "Racism doesn't get to just trump class." Sure it does. A society in which wealthy Blues have public, social power over poor Greens is simply not exhibiting deep-seated xenophobia, intolerance, and god-given superiority against the Blues. Lithmore is a society with intolerance and deep-seated hatred of foreigners, in which the dominant ethnicity considers themselves superior as proved by God, and makes a concentrated effort to secure their authority over all others. If there are serious ramifications for acting in a xenophobic manner, you are not in a xenophobic society.
(That said, I think the theme itself is confused and contradictory about the intersection of race and class, which makes is tough for players to figure out. Which I think must be one reason for the sort of 'anything goes!' approach.)
Let me just start by saying I, like everybody else, love racist characters like Bernart and the RP he's stirring up. (Seriously, you go man.)
But the helpfiles, right now, imply Bernart is the NORM.
That's not true, and if it were true, I don't think it'd actually be very fun. The diversity of perspectives we get by having all these races and all these classes together is a large part of why TI has so much conflict. If Lithmorrans were all truly 'deep-seated xenophobes', then man, we'd all have to play Lithmorrans to get anywhere.
And I think BingoX is right that we don't properly portray the intersection of class and race in the helpfiles either.
To me, this becomes the question of: Why do we want to try and live by helpfiles that portray a theme we don't truly want to roleplay? (I say we don't want to RP it because of the simple fact that Bernart is NOT the norm and we have a Charali Proconsul.)
What do we gain by keeping these helpfiles if they don't match reality?
Bryony's argument that conflict is appealing is definitely a valid one, but I think conflict can be preserved with a milder and more true-to-life helpfile. Certainly I don't feel like the people who do create conflict by being more racist/sexist/etc wouldn't do so if the helpfiles said something like I suggested before. In a nutshell: "Lithmore's rural population is extremely racist. In the city itself, those racists are still around but are somewhat rarer due to the melting pot, most people are accepting and/or resigned even if they look down their noses at foreigners." Those kind of proactive, trouble-making players would have no problems playing the 'some'.
So I feel fairly justified in asserting that the actual level of conflict wouldn't decrease if we fixed the helpfiles.
What other reason (and I do ask this sincerely, not just to be combatative!) do we have for not changing the helpfiles to match the RP world?
But the helpfiles, right now, imply Bernart is the NORM.
That's not true, and if it were true, I don't think it'd actually be very fun. The diversity of perspectives we get by having all these races and all these classes together is a large part of why TI has so much conflict. If Lithmorrans were all truly 'deep-seated xenophobes', then man, we'd all have to play Lithmorrans to get anywhere.
And I think BingoX is right that we don't properly portray the intersection of class and race in the helpfiles either.
To me, this becomes the question of: Why do we want to try and live by helpfiles that portray a theme we don't truly want to roleplay? (I say we don't want to RP it because of the simple fact that Bernart is NOT the norm and we have a Charali Proconsul.)
What do we gain by keeping these helpfiles if they don't match reality?
Bryony's argument that conflict is appealing is definitely a valid one, but I think conflict can be preserved with a milder and more true-to-life helpfile. Certainly I don't feel like the people who do create conflict by being more racist/sexist/etc wouldn't do so if the helpfiles said something like I suggested before. In a nutshell: "Lithmore's rural population is extremely racist. In the city itself, those racists are still around but are somewhat rarer due to the melting pot, most people are accepting and/or resigned even if they look down their noses at foreigners." Those kind of proactive, trouble-making players would have no problems playing the 'some'.
So I feel fairly justified in asserting that the actual level of conflict wouldn't decrease if we fixed the helpfiles.
What other reason (and I do ask this sincerely, not just to be combatative!) do we have for not changing the helpfiles to match the RP world?
I think racism in game is fun, so I think that whether it's fun to play is a matter of personal taste.
OOCly racism is not fun, no, but that's because being hateful to someone should have legitimate reasons in real life. In a game, though, there's no legitimate reason to hate anyone, we're just playing with artificial constructs to place ourselves and our gaming partners on opposite sides of a fence and provide conflict. People not interested in that sort of conflict are specifically warned about the nature of the themes through help files, and heck, even the game's name.
By way of stereotype, Tubori, Vandagans, and Farins are pretty okay with just about everyone (except Daravi), but if Liths are self-culture extremists. The Charali and Vavardi are at war. And if you're Charali or Hillman, you flat signed up for the "race wars" because everybody, even the Tubori, Vandagans and Farin, thinks you're a savage - those groups have it bad enough that there are explicit warnings in chargen. I'm sure not keen on rewriting those wonderful ingrained conflicts to eliminate IC racism.
TI as a theme is about highlighting the evils of man and the bad things we get up to, and actually writing stories in a gritty world where people have perspective, and they're not as kind and cuddly as your modern man. To me? Mmm, yummy theme!
As for changing the help files - I think they don't need it. I think if we did, characters like Bernart would have no defense when they are generating RP with conflict. Not in favor.
OOCly racism is not fun, no, but that's because being hateful to someone should have legitimate reasons in real life. In a game, though, there's no legitimate reason to hate anyone, we're just playing with artificial constructs to place ourselves and our gaming partners on opposite sides of a fence and provide conflict. People not interested in that sort of conflict are specifically warned about the nature of the themes through help files, and heck, even the game's name.
By way of stereotype, Tubori, Vandagans, and Farins are pretty okay with just about everyone (except Daravi), but if Liths are self-culture extremists. The Charali and Vavardi are at war. And if you're Charali or Hillman, you flat signed up for the "race wars" because everybody, even the Tubori, Vandagans and Farin, thinks you're a savage - those groups have it bad enough that there are explicit warnings in chargen. I'm sure not keen on rewriting those wonderful ingrained conflicts to eliminate IC racism.
TI as a theme is about highlighting the evils of man and the bad things we get up to, and actually writing stories in a gritty world where people have perspective, and they're not as kind and cuddly as your modern man. To me? Mmm, yummy theme!
As for changing the help files - I think they don't need it. I think if we did, characters like Bernart would have no defense when they are generating RP with conflict. Not in favor.
I think people often want the theme to be very black and white, but this isn't a game that offers that. Every major aspect of theme has counterpoints to it that can tip it one way or the other based on player actions. Race and Class are one example. I can nitpick and find just as many class help files that outlay the rights of nobles and gentry and the importance of the class divide, not only in Lithmore, but the extended duchies. Whether race trumps class or class trumps race depends on current player attitudes and I think it detrimental to say one is more powerful than another.
Kin, I don't think anyone wants to eliminate IC racism. Or is complaining that exists. At least, I haven't seen anyone make that argument here. I think a tag into the current help file (that doesn't cut out the current language) that says that "almost half of the city of Lithmore itself is taken up with Foreign Quarters that make urban residents more familiar and conflicted with issues of race" provides outs for players playing all levels of racism in their RP. Then players like Bernart can't point their finger at someone who isn't so overt and say, "You're not playing by theme!" but players that are pro-tolerance can't point and Bernart and claim he isn't playing by theme, either.
If staff really intend for players to follow racial theme to the ultimate breaking point per: Lithmorran attitudes, then there should be a cap on the number of non-Lithmorran characters allowed in game at any time, a cap on the number of non-Lithmorran nobility allowed in game at any time, the Foreign Quarters should be restricted or xblocked, etc. But I don't think we currently have the player base to pull that off and make foreign characters playable.
Kin, I don't think anyone wants to eliminate IC racism. Or is complaining that exists. At least, I haven't seen anyone make that argument here. I think a tag into the current help file (that doesn't cut out the current language) that says that "almost half of the city of Lithmore itself is taken up with Foreign Quarters that make urban residents more familiar and conflicted with issues of race" provides outs for players playing all levels of racism in their RP. Then players like Bernart can't point their finger at someone who isn't so overt and say, "You're not playing by theme!" but players that are pro-tolerance can't point and Bernart and claim he isn't playing by theme, either.
If staff really intend for players to follow racial theme to the ultimate breaking point per: Lithmorran attitudes, then there should be a cap on the number of non-Lithmorran characters allowed in game at any time, a cap on the number of non-Lithmorran nobility allowed in game at any time, the Foreign Quarters should be restricted or xblocked, etc. But I don't think we currently have the player base to pull that off and make foreign characters playable.
Um, I'm actually in the moderate camp of "I like things how they are just fine".
Here were BingoX's suggestions:
Two-and-a-half - These commands already exist, but it doesn't require a vote. You can use rpecho (just be careful to be fair about it - there's a policy about vnpc use in conflicts) or storytelling code to bring the world to life.
Three - I'm sorry, I'm totally with Gwen in that it's not the GL's job to fix up other people's RP short-comings. Everyone should be playing thematic characters to really grind the theme into the practiced IC culture. However, it is true that leaders have more impact, and staff generally do not approve out of theme characters. Still, we don't control the game to that degree, and other than really blatant things out of theme (like blocking the poor Charali Proconsul from becoming Justiciar - sorry, Dag :() we generally let people who have worked their way up a guild make their way up, which means that most guilds are not lead by app-in characters (I think... ? It may be around 50%?)
Four - Seems like where I'm at! No disrespect to those people who kindly raised the issues or the discussion it brought about. :)
Here were BingoX's suggestions:
One - rewrite help files? Nope, I think they provide enough texture of the world that everyone understands it. I also think players play it "right" by bringing their own interpretation to what the help files mean. The trouble lies in PersonA looking at PersonB and saying "You're not doing X right to be in theme!" Frankly, I have more respect for you lot than that. Having had most of you around for (gosh, years), I'm pretty sure if someone's "not playing the racist theme", they've chosen to purposefully deviate for a reason I'd respect and is realistic to the game. So I don't raise it.One: rewrite the helpfile, so it reflects the world. Dice nailed that. Probably the most sensible option.
Two: the staff enforces theme via 'approvals' or playing vnpcs/NPCs. I guess this would turn into a nightmare of accusations of favoritism, though.
Two-and-a-half: Just thought of this. What if there's a command that lets players temporarily step into the skin of 'a crowd of perfectly average citizens' and give approval or disapproval as them? Sort of 'vnpc approval', except instead of staff doing it, players do? So the unwashed masses have a majority voice, via players?
Three: the Monarch--and, for that matter, other lawful type GLs--be required to enforce theme. But who wants to be forced to play a xenophobic prick? Nobody. I'd stop playing a PC before I had to change his personality to comply with a helpfile.
Four: change nothing, sit back, and enjoy the fun!
Two-and-a-half - These commands already exist, but it doesn't require a vote. You can use rpecho (just be careful to be fair about it - there's a policy about vnpc use in conflicts) or storytelling code to bring the world to life.
Three - I'm sorry, I'm totally with Gwen in that it's not the GL's job to fix up other people's RP short-comings. Everyone should be playing thematic characters to really grind the theme into the practiced IC culture. However, it is true that leaders have more impact, and staff generally do not approve out of theme characters. Still, we don't control the game to that degree, and other than really blatant things out of theme (like blocking the poor Charali Proconsul from becoming Justiciar - sorry, Dag :() we generally let people who have worked their way up a guild make their way up, which means that most guilds are not lead by app-in characters (I think... ? It may be around 50%?)
Four - Seems like where I'm at! No disrespect to those people who kindly raised the issues or the discussion it brought about. :)
I see no reason why any player is obliged to play the racist theme. That is not our job. Our job is playing characters. Staff's job (and that of the Monarch, according to the helpfile) is playing theme.
I never suggested that any GL should 'fix' other people's RP shortcomings. I don't see any RP shortcomings in, say, a Charali who achieves high office, or a woman who walks around in public with her hair down. I hope nobody thinks I do. On the contrary, I completely admire those players for pushing back against the world! That's totally fun, and not 'unthematic' in the least! I adore outrageous, challenging, iconoclastic PCs.
What's unthematic is how the vnpc world responds. Or fails to respond.
All I was really suggesting is that either the one PC whose behavior is theoretically circumscribed by a longass helpfile should enforce theme as per that policy, in the absence of staff's willingness to do so, or (more sensibly) we should change the helpfile.
However ... at this point I'd kind of hate if the world/monarch became suddenly visibly conservative. Right now I'm the happiest player in game. I get to play a lone wolf rebel and a typical traditionalist at the very same time! I'm loving it.
I never suggested that any GL should 'fix' other people's RP shortcomings. I don't see any RP shortcomings in, say, a Charali who achieves high office, or a woman who walks around in public with her hair down. I hope nobody thinks I do. On the contrary, I completely admire those players for pushing back against the world! That's totally fun, and not 'unthematic' in the least! I adore outrageous, challenging, iconoclastic PCs.
What's unthematic is how the vnpc world responds. Or fails to respond.
All I was really suggesting is that either the one PC whose behavior is theoretically circumscribed by a longass helpfile should enforce theme as per that policy, in the absence of staff's willingness to do so, or (more sensibly) we should change the helpfile.
However ... at this point I'd kind of hate if the world/monarch became suddenly visibly conservative. Right now I'm the happiest player in game. I get to play a lone wolf rebel and a typical traditionalist at the very same time! I'm loving it.
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