I think people not being able to see rumors about themselves is a great, thematic, fun solution to the first problem posited: people being offended OOCly by vicious rumors targeted at their characters.
However, I don't think it solves the problem of unthematic rumors. I wager half the player base doesn't know theme on a multitude of subjects. A lot of a GLs time has been, in the past, and probably still is, spent on hammering down subjects of theme with staff. I know this is especially true for church GLs and members. I've been round like... christ, four or five years, and just yesterday I had to have a long consult with Takta because I botched thematic post-noble relationships in the background of one of my characters.
Quality control is needed. Either implement a system where only a few really good rumors are weeded out by a staffer(s) and put up for general enjoyment, or allow players to more easily have an impact on quashing rumors, including a mechanic that at a certain point of quashing, they disappear entirely. (Edit: Turns out that's already in play; I thought quashing did something else, but apparently I just never quashed enough.)
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As for the idea of thinking rumors are too 'vicious', I understand. Not that I agree -- mostly, I think a lot of the rumors are just plain fucking stupid -- but I understand because I tend to play a lot of really, passionately hated characters that get flak both IC and OOC.
[Poll] Rumors
People can pretty easily quash rumours already, I feel. Just this week there was a rumour about how quickly another rumour had disappeared. It requires investment (or having bard friends), but it does happen.
I cannot say my characters have been on the receiving end of rumours I felt were too over the top; but I am all for more accountability in the rumour-verse. One of my characters once wanted to put out a rumour/event which had the potential to be actively damaging and I submitted it as a plot first. Essentially, I paid RPA and rolled for how anonymous I could be and how far I could take it. Now this IC came from my character, unlike the rumours from 'a random passerby with a funky hat', but if needing to pay for rumours in some way might genuinely quell the nastiness, either by making it too expensive or too potentially damaging to throw around mean barbs like candy, maybe we'll be on to something.
On the other side, given that no one seems to actually do anything IC about rumours, I do find this a little bit surprising. I don't think I have ever even seen a rumour brought up in IC conversation if I wasn't the one actively talking about it ('Did you hear Lord so-and-so's badger got loose?' 'Ugh, that nasty little thing.' 'I know, I would get away too.' *bubbly clink*). I am of a mind that active response to rumours would probably help by both being distracting and allowing people to reclaim a bit of power over their public image.
It's a bit like real life; if you hear a nasty rumour about your character and hide out of the way because clearly everyone is terrible and mean and hates you, you'll just be internalizing that and feel shitty without recourse to not feel shitty. If, on the other hand, you hear a nasty rumour about yourself and then go out and have awesome RP where clearly people aren't terrible and mean and hate you, it'll probably be easier to get over the nastiness (and those people you IC interacted with might now have reason to intercede in your favour and break the thread of nasty rumour; no one ever defended anyone they didn't know).
I will admit that it would bum me out a little bit to lose the volume of rumours, just because I think they are actually pretty important from a theme-enforcing standpoint. The pocket of Lithmore that our characters occupy is highly likely to be more enlightened and more progressive in many ways (very simply by virtue of most of us possessing the appropriately modern sensibilities), and yeah, it is important, IMO, that we be reminded that Lithmore is a bit of a dark place, because we kind of have a hard time doing it ourselves. That's not to say anyone -has- to play the bad guy, but if we're here to navigate within a theme that we've chosen, that theme should probably be felt at least every once in a while, no?
ETA: For that last part, I am not saying there is not some patently unnecessary stuff going on in the rumours (because oof, there is and has been), just that I would like them to be seen and used more in this light. And I like gossip.
I cannot say my characters have been on the receiving end of rumours I felt were too over the top; but I am all for more accountability in the rumour-verse. One of my characters once wanted to put out a rumour/event which had the potential to be actively damaging and I submitted it as a plot first. Essentially, I paid RPA and rolled for how anonymous I could be and how far I could take it. Now this IC came from my character, unlike the rumours from 'a random passerby with a funky hat', but if needing to pay for rumours in some way might genuinely quell the nastiness, either by making it too expensive or too potentially damaging to throw around mean barbs like candy, maybe we'll be on to something.
On the other side, given that no one seems to actually do anything IC about rumours, I do find this a little bit surprising. I don't think I have ever even seen a rumour brought up in IC conversation if I wasn't the one actively talking about it ('Did you hear Lord so-and-so's badger got loose?' 'Ugh, that nasty little thing.' 'I know, I would get away too.' *bubbly clink*). I am of a mind that active response to rumours would probably help by both being distracting and allowing people to reclaim a bit of power over their public image.
It's a bit like real life; if you hear a nasty rumour about your character and hide out of the way because clearly everyone is terrible and mean and hates you, you'll just be internalizing that and feel shitty without recourse to not feel shitty. If, on the other hand, you hear a nasty rumour about yourself and then go out and have awesome RP where clearly people aren't terrible and mean and hate you, it'll probably be easier to get over the nastiness (and those people you IC interacted with might now have reason to intercede in your favour and break the thread of nasty rumour; no one ever defended anyone they didn't know).
I will admit that it would bum me out a little bit to lose the volume of rumours, just because I think they are actually pretty important from a theme-enforcing standpoint. The pocket of Lithmore that our characters occupy is highly likely to be more enlightened and more progressive in many ways (very simply by virtue of most of us possessing the appropriately modern sensibilities), and yeah, it is important, IMO, that we be reminded that Lithmore is a bit of a dark place, because we kind of have a hard time doing it ourselves. That's not to say anyone -has- to play the bad guy, but if we're here to navigate within a theme that we've chosen, that theme should probably be felt at least every once in a while, no?
ETA: For that last part, I am not saying there is not some patently unnecessary stuff going on in the rumours (because oof, there is and has been), just that I would like them to be seen and used more in this light. And I like gossip.
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bureaucrat36
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:59 am
My general dislike of the rumor system stems more from its use in gaming the game rather than the content of the rumors (though the current content is likely due to the current function the rumor mini game provides players.) With rumors I can anonymously get out a message to far more people, faster, than I could with time spent roleplaying my character in face to face interactions. Not only can I reach more broadly than my character’s real in game voice power and street cred would normally allow, but I can do so with absolutely no loss, and in fact a net gain when you consider you get (up to 3?) ip for participating in the system. I can also present ideas and opinions that my character would no way in hell dare give voice to, or at least not without some very clever, subversive shenanigans.
Thus, the rumor system is ‘better than rp’. More powerful, safer and efficient than actually going out to deal with other players. I have a problem with this, because when I log on to a RP MUD, I want to assume a persona with which to interact with other people’s characters and the game world environment. I play plenty of other fantasy adventure games .. and strategic games.. and all sorts of games where I game the game systems to my avatar’s, team, or own personal win. When I log on TI I want a break from that style of play. The fact that the rumor system appears to be used to game things by presenting ideas that would be difficult or unpopular for a character to give voice to normally, or just spewing out drivel for the 3 participation ip to use in one of the other game systems (GL or Plots) (both systems I dislike for the same reasons I'm complaining about the rumor system today) disregarding what my own character would think of these mini games, has little to do with me properly role playing my character concept with others or the environment. In fact, it is taking away from it when I participate for one of these reasons.
Rumors should be what our characters are going out and talking with one another about. If we want a story to spread, we should have to rp with other players, and spread it around. Pay a troubadour. Pay a thief. Buy a crap ton of paper and make a bazillion flyers to hang on every single message board in the city. Get fined by the Reeves for hanging drivel on their board without their permission. Get called out by an inquisitor for spouting heresy. Get burned with my pile of pamphlets. The rumor system gets around all this for a profit to the player to not actually interact with other players beyond going once for a few minutes to a public room (that may not even have other players in it at the time) to buy the rumor for a few silver.
That’s my beef. The nastiness we see is simply due to the rumor system being too good for its own good of spreading nasty stuff. If I want to talk smack about someone, I can, without my character being traced back to be held accountable. Or.. even, worst of all in my mind for a RP game, interacting with another player character.
If the game absolutely must for some reason have a rumor system (the stuff that isn’t negative tends to be self aggrandizing rumors started by the player about their character - and some of those are not so nice for humor - some people love a rumor about their char, good or bad, and thus love rumor systems) I would rather see a less accessible or interactive system that provides players with prompts to catch them up on news, happenings, or gossip to provide points to kick off a conversation with another character in rp, in game. Talking to them in character after that street sweeper lets drop a juicy bit of news; or writing to ask them if the rumor is true, and being invited to secret chess to get the whole _real_ story. Something more like pvents.
I also might promote putting most all the rumor commands into the folio of the Troubadour guild. Thus some form of in game in character accountability is born. Both for the bards in charge of maintaining the rumor system (egads, do I really let this one slip out?) as well as their sources (I’m sorry Inquisitor, that nasty witch Sue told me to start the rumor about you eating kittens! No, no, not the hands!). Not to mention it gives the Troubies a nice bit of in game clout, as they once again become the kingdom's big media conglomerate.
Those are my thoughts on the rumor system, I could probably make more, but probably already TL;DR.
TL;DR: Rumor system is OP and more effective than in game RP interactions, pls nerf rumor system.
Thus, the rumor system is ‘better than rp’. More powerful, safer and efficient than actually going out to deal with other players. I have a problem with this, because when I log on to a RP MUD, I want to assume a persona with which to interact with other people’s characters and the game world environment. I play plenty of other fantasy adventure games .. and strategic games.. and all sorts of games where I game the game systems to my avatar’s, team, or own personal win. When I log on TI I want a break from that style of play. The fact that the rumor system appears to be used to game things by presenting ideas that would be difficult or unpopular for a character to give voice to normally, or just spewing out drivel for the 3 participation ip to use in one of the other game systems (GL or Plots) (both systems I dislike for the same reasons I'm complaining about the rumor system today) disregarding what my own character would think of these mini games, has little to do with me properly role playing my character concept with others or the environment. In fact, it is taking away from it when I participate for one of these reasons.
Rumors should be what our characters are going out and talking with one another about. If we want a story to spread, we should have to rp with other players, and spread it around. Pay a troubadour. Pay a thief. Buy a crap ton of paper and make a bazillion flyers to hang on every single message board in the city. Get fined by the Reeves for hanging drivel on their board without their permission. Get called out by an inquisitor for spouting heresy. Get burned with my pile of pamphlets. The rumor system gets around all this for a profit to the player to not actually interact with other players beyond going once for a few minutes to a public room (that may not even have other players in it at the time) to buy the rumor for a few silver.
That’s my beef. The nastiness we see is simply due to the rumor system being too good for its own good of spreading nasty stuff. If I want to talk smack about someone, I can, without my character being traced back to be held accountable. Or.. even, worst of all in my mind for a RP game, interacting with another player character.
If the game absolutely must for some reason have a rumor system (the stuff that isn’t negative tends to be self aggrandizing rumors started by the player about their character - and some of those are not so nice for humor - some people love a rumor about their char, good or bad, and thus love rumor systems) I would rather see a less accessible or interactive system that provides players with prompts to catch them up on news, happenings, or gossip to provide points to kick off a conversation with another character in rp, in game. Talking to them in character after that street sweeper lets drop a juicy bit of news; or writing to ask them if the rumor is true, and being invited to secret chess to get the whole _real_ story. Something more like pvents.
I also might promote putting most all the rumor commands into the folio of the Troubadour guild. Thus some form of in game in character accountability is born. Both for the bards in charge of maintaining the rumor system (egads, do I really let this one slip out?) as well as their sources (I’m sorry Inquisitor, that nasty witch Sue told me to start the rumor about you eating kittens! No, no, not the hands!). Not to mention it gives the Troubies a nice bit of in game clout, as they once again become the kingdom's big media conglomerate.
Those are my thoughts on the rumor system, I could probably make more, but probably already TL;DR.
TL;DR: Rumor system is OP and more effective than in game RP interactions, pls nerf rumor system.
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anietzschesweater
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:37 pm
I think the rumours can certainly bring out our OOC viciousness and it does, because it's not what our PCs are saying so there is no accountability. I dislike what Bob is doing to my PC, but my PC doesn't know about it, so I'm just going to trash Bob in rumours now... That's lame. That being said, it's rumours, they are rarely nice. What I don't like when it's clearly personal Oocly. IC it is legit but should be traceable. I do enjoy when information is leaked, or someone furthers a plot by interjecting stuff. Like most things if it's well written and interesting - great - if it's just angry mobbing, then it's not cool. I do think we should keep the rumours though because it's an interesting part of the game. I think that also with respect to the person resigning (I think there is more to GL role then just the rumours and might be worth discussing as an aside.)
Last edited by anietzschesweater on Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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The_Last_Good_Dragon
- Posts: 254
- Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:08 am
I don't feel like the rumor system should be the place for common-place attacks against other characters. I don't feel like it should be the place for opinions to be voiced that might be contentious. If your character is pissed or dismissive of another person, I think you should be making those feelings felt clearly in play. That is to say: if there's a noble you feel like you can't insult directly, your first thought shouldn't be "I'll just talk shit about them in the rumor mill." It should be "I'll talk shit about them in the tavern when they're not around" so that your apparent dissatisfaction can get back to them organically.
But it's kind of conflicting, too. There have been times I know people have spread some shit about Farra in rumors where their characters ICly really like my Countess because there are perceptions of her that I do try to cultivate as mean and gossip-about-able. When players tell others about how big a jerk Farra is directly it generates an RP environment that feels a bit more alive and connected than the rumor system allows. Also, when the responses to rumors turns vicious against your character it can be incredibly frustrating OOCly that you can't have a response if you've already contributed to the rumor.
There's such a gray area when it comes to rumors about if it's an IC action by your character or if it's you being able to contribute to a discussion your character wouldn't be able to have, and I don't think that's entirely a bad thing. But maybe it should be that outright attacks on other players shouldn't be allowed in rumors. Hiding behind mechanics isn't the place to express your irritations with other people: conversations on-grid are. If you want people to think Farra is a witch, you should be sitting in a tavern saying such. If you think the Grand Magnate is a creepy pedophile for his interest in Silrie, or that Silrie is an uneducated heathen, you should be saying that in-game BEFORE you go to the rumor mill.
So I guess what I'm saying is that: I feel that mean rumors are fine, but that using them to express your character's opinion of someone behind near-total anonymity or the ambiguity of the purpose of the system isn't right or fun for the target of your ire.
But it's kind of conflicting, too. There have been times I know people have spread some shit about Farra in rumors where their characters ICly really like my Countess because there are perceptions of her that I do try to cultivate as mean and gossip-about-able. When players tell others about how big a jerk Farra is directly it generates an RP environment that feels a bit more alive and connected than the rumor system allows. Also, when the responses to rumors turns vicious against your character it can be incredibly frustrating OOCly that you can't have a response if you've already contributed to the rumor.
There's such a gray area when it comes to rumors about if it's an IC action by your character or if it's you being able to contribute to a discussion your character wouldn't be able to have, and I don't think that's entirely a bad thing. But maybe it should be that outright attacks on other players shouldn't be allowed in rumors. Hiding behind mechanics isn't the place to express your irritations with other people: conversations on-grid are. If you want people to think Farra is a witch, you should be sitting in a tavern saying such. If you think the Grand Magnate is a creepy pedophile for his interest in Silrie, or that Silrie is an uneducated heathen, you should be saying that in-game BEFORE you go to the rumor mill.
So I guess what I'm saying is that: I feel that mean rumors are fine, but that using them to express your character's opinion of someone behind near-total anonymity or the ambiguity of the purpose of the system isn't right or fun for the target of your ire.
~~ Team Farra'n'Stuff. ~~
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Voxumo
- Posts: 655
- Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:54 am
- Location: Delta Junction, Alaska
- Discord Handle: Voxumo#7925
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I would like to point one thing out... Rumors aren't completely anonymous. I've had plenty of instances where a rumor is indirectly linked back to my character. For example, after Emma broke up with Misune, Misune got really spiteful, and I mean really spiteful, and he started saying some things in the rumor-mill, mostly in response to existing rumors. While no one ever came up to him and said 'Did you say these things' rp surrounding it heavily implied they knew it was him. I mean sure if you ask him he'll deny it, but it's not impossible to trace rumors back to the person who entered it. It's just most don't want to take the time to do so.
Lurks the Forums
TIL Misune's player made me cry irl via TI rumors. BASTAAAARD.
In all seriousness, Misune being a REALLY spiteful person via rumors for awhile there spawned tons and tons of RP for me, and it was way more widely-spread than my RP tended to be; groups I wouldn't have had a reason to seek out otherwise. Emma ended up making friends she wouldn't have had any reason to speak to on a personal level before. To that end, I think vicious abuse over rumors can be as useful an RP tool as you make it.
In all seriousness, Misune being a REALLY spiteful person via rumors for awhile there spawned tons and tons of RP for me, and it was way more widely-spread than my RP tended to be; groups I wouldn't have had a reason to seek out otherwise. Emma ended up making friends she wouldn't have had any reason to speak to on a personal level before. To that end, I think vicious abuse over rumors can be as useful an RP tool as you make it.
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Takta
This seems a great time/place to clarify the suggestion I made!
It was not that rumors be non-anonymous in that rumor review would show you the names of the posters - it was that all rumor cmments be required to be the work of your own PC, UNLESS they are at your own PC's detriment. (I.e., feel free to slag yourself off from an NPC's perspective, but not others!)
The Misune example shows the good RP you can get out of rumors - *when* a PC owns them as their own creation. Under current policy, however, Misune would have been entirely within his rights to claim ICly "That wasn't me, that was a random NPC who agrees with me", and that would have killed the RP then and there while protecting him from any consequences. I approve of the fact he DIDN'T do that, but I believe the fact people -can- spew bile and vitriol without being ICly responsible for it is a big part of the nastiness of rumors. If we had to word rumors in a way that our PC would actually say, I bet they'd get a lot more thematic and a lot more snippy without being absolutely vile! Also, right now - as someone else said in this thread - people do ignore rumors rather than investigate them. And that makes sense! Why bother investigating a rumor that can't be laid at the door of any particular PC?
So my proposal was to keep rumors by -default- anonymous, but require rumor content be seen as ICly the creation of the PC spreading it. This would not hurt rumor use, imo, as rumors would default to anonymous and require IP or QPA to investigate still. But it would provide 1) a new sink for IP or QP, 2) IC recourse against slanderers, and 3) a whole new vein of RP.
It was not that rumors be non-anonymous in that rumor review would show you the names of the posters - it was that all rumor cmments be required to be the work of your own PC, UNLESS they are at your own PC's detriment. (I.e., feel free to slag yourself off from an NPC's perspective, but not others!)
The Misune example shows the good RP you can get out of rumors - *when* a PC owns them as their own creation. Under current policy, however, Misune would have been entirely within his rights to claim ICly "That wasn't me, that was a random NPC who agrees with me", and that would have killed the RP then and there while protecting him from any consequences. I approve of the fact he DIDN'T do that, but I believe the fact people -can- spew bile and vitriol without being ICly responsible for it is a big part of the nastiness of rumors. If we had to word rumors in a way that our PC would actually say, I bet they'd get a lot more thematic and a lot more snippy without being absolutely vile! Also, right now - as someone else said in this thread - people do ignore rumors rather than investigate them. And that makes sense! Why bother investigating a rumor that can't be laid at the door of any particular PC?
So my proposal was to keep rumors by -default- anonymous, but require rumor content be seen as ICly the creation of the PC spreading it. This would not hurt rumor use, imo, as rumors would default to anonymous and require IP or QPA to investigate still. But it would provide 1) a new sink for IP or QP, 2) IC recourse against slanderers, and 3) a whole new vein of RP.
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