Retainer Upkeep Costs

[Tremere]

We also just got husbandry in... which is has a lot of... pets. >.> We already need to tend a good portion of them with giving them feed and what not to represent an upkeep cost. this is going to just further put a damper on things.

[Limonade]

Something that I think might go hand in hand with this - now that guards are required to be paid for regularly, I think the class-specific restrictions on number of retainers/pets should probably be removed, now that the cost of upkeep provides a more intuitive and practical limit. As a Freeman GL, I risk running into the limit constantly - I had to kill my pet quail to have two bodyguards when I learned there was a plot on my character's life! And I basically don't get a horse, either...

I mostly agree with this, but I am iffy about it taking place without the removal of purchase silver (to be exchanged for a more elaborate income purchasing system or salary, as Dice pointed out). Anyways. I am out of the loop, but in all I am happy about this if it causes people to think more carefully about how they allocate their RP resources.

[Voxumo]

I would like to start by saying I fully support something like this, having to pay for your retainers. However I do not support it in it's current form, as I feel the costs are a tad too high. Let me provide an example.
A Fully-belted Knight in the Knight's Guilds makes 75 silver weekly, pages make 25. I'm not sure what the Reeves are like, but I imagine it's something similar. As it stands having the highest tier guard, 2500 silver, they are being paid 125 silver weekly. I'm sorry, that seems a bit off. Heck thats the same amount the Grand Master and Grand Inquisitor make. Now I know guild wages can be changed, but they should also serve as some form of... basis for what a non-guild combat unit would be paid. It's also worth noting that the wages for the Knights and Order have been in place since December 5th, 2013, if not longer. They haven't changed at all in those two years.

Does it make sense for a lowly bodyguard to be making the same as a GL? Not at all. I think the current price should stay the same, if not raised to a max of 10%, but required to be paid on a monthly basis, similar to how taxes are set up. Infact it could be lumped into taxes for ease.

[Applesauce]

Another benefit of PC guards: PC guards can actually FIGHT BACK, not only take damage for you.

Just saying.

[Applesauce]

Unfortunately, NPC bodyguards have a huge advantage over PC bodyguards in that they can always be around! I think this is probably the main reason you don't see more PC bodyguards, rather than it being a cost issue.

Another benefit of PC guards: PC guards can actually FIGHT BACK, not only take damage for you.

Just saying.

[Tremere]

PC Guards can fight back sure, but I am with BattleJenkins on this, you can almost never rely on a PC guard to be around when you need them. Yes sometimes you can, especially if you both have similar play times, but that means you have to find someone who is a combat oriented character, who wants to be a personal guard rather than a Reeve/Knight/murderous thief (though the last isn't mutually exclusive) who also plays at the same times as you. That doesn't leave a wide pool. It's hard enough to find knights as -is-.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

While I do like this idea, I do feel like if it's implemented as-is that initial costs to get a retainer should go way down, potentially even being removed entirely. Paying 2500 silver for a bodyguard AND 125 silver a week is just so much; it was my assumption that the cost to hire covered 'salary' for the time spent in service. I think this will negatively impact the NPC market — and I'm one of the few with a PC "guard". Obviously all the mentioned problems (what use is a guard who won't be there most of the time?) limit that from being a really effective metric.

[Silrie]

I'll admit I' not a fan of this. As a freeman with a bodyguard, it'll mean my character is now a free target for anyone and anything that wants to come around and kill her, since I'll now need to get rid of said guard. So it does mean freeman are just even bigger targets and easier ones, now that they won't be able to afford protection. Though I get that only the wealthy would realistically be able to afford bodyguards. But what about guard dogs themselves? That might be more reasonable for a freeman, but would they still require an insanely high upkeep?

I agree with BattleJenkins as well. Now that the price of protection is insanely high, the limit should be removed, since you'll not have to worry that any freeman would try to have more than one pet now, seeing as how it would be impossible for them to afford it.

I hope you guys can find a middle ground, at least for nobles and gentry.

[Kinaed]

Things to note:

- We already announced that we intend increased the wages of nobles and freeman along with the upkeep implementation.
- We are reviewing the costs of retainer and pet mobs as part of this process, so some changes may still occur.
- I take BattleJenkins' point that the ongoing costs create a sort of natural limit, so perhaps the class limits on retainers can go, but I'll have to discuss that further with staff.
- Purchase silver is not going anywhere, nor is purchase wealth expected to change in the near future.

With regards to everything else said, I think the staff chewed over it all together and have addressed everything else before we came up with these changes - ie, no surprises have been raised in this thread.

On TI, very little silver outlay is actually required to play the game or for a character to live. They even start with a full set of toolable clothing and a free phome. Characters don't starve if they never eat, etc. Almost every economic sink in the game is a discretionary choice. Thus, whereas we do view a certain baseline standard as appropriate per each class, we do not view it as every character's right to have four top notch bodyguards, a horse, a maid, and three other pets AND to have TI's free class income foot the bill. These items are luxuries and "stretch goals", so to speak. In fact, the prestige of owning them is part of the appeal of their existence, which provides value to the various purchases in the system.

[Gerolf]

A Fully-belted Knight in the Knight's Guilds makes 75 silver weekly, pages make 25. I'm not sure what the Reeves are like, but I imagine it's something similar. As it stands having the highest tier guard, 2500 silver, they are being paid 125 silver weekly. I'm sorry, that seems a bit off. Heck thats the same amount the Grand Master and Grand Inquisitor make. Now I know guild wages can be changed, but they should also serve as some form of... basis for what a non-guild combat unit would be paid. It's also worth noting that the wages for the Knights and Order have been in place since December 5th, 2013, if not longer. They haven't changed at all in those two years.

I do think this option needs to be looked at ICly. For the record for anyone who is curious, the pay scale for Reeves is 125 for Justiciar, 100 for Proconsul and 75 for Magistrates. Cadets make 25, so I think our curves are the same just a little shorter on the top end.