[Poll] Rumors

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

So my proposal was to keep rumors by -default- anonymous, but require rumor content be seen as ICly the creation of the PC spreading it. This would not hurt rumor use, imo, as rumors would default to anonymous and require IP or QPA to investigate still. But it would provide 1) a new sink for IP or QP, 2) IC recourse against slanderers, and 3) a whole new vein of RP.

Or, if they aren't anonymous, maybe require the PC to append their name to the rumor? Like "Well maybe Takta is a dashing fellow, or maybe he's just a slimy man who slept his way into a noble position and then ran the dignity of our army into the ground? [NPC — Farra]" if you want a rumor to be at the detriment of another player but not be ICly spread by your character; that way, other people can understand it isn't the actual opinion of a PC and, if they want to look into it further, understand it's not a specific person they can RPA against.

[Takta]

I really personally prefer the idea of requiring the PC to take responsibility.If it is an NPC, if it's not a specific person you can RPA against - to me the RP just sort of... stops there, in a lot of cases. Someone is ragging on you, and you have zero meaningful response options. Investigation, a really interesting and valuable angle of RP, is solely worth it if all rumors are PC-owned. I also feel it better fits with our "you cannot RP that NPCs are taking your side/in your favor without RPA" policy.

[Limonade]

I honestly would prefer that people had to spend RPA for the random populace to take their sides in rumour. It's such a weird intangible that anyone can claim the plebs are on their side and it becomes a little meaningless.

[Kinaed]

I'm not keen on the solution of making rumors ICly spread by the characters who raise them; I am fairly certain that it will kill the rumor system. Not because people aren't willing to take responsibility for what their characters do, but because a lot of people don't see their characters as actually the sort to gossip, so if rumors were to be spread from their characters specifically, they just wouldn't do it as a matter of staying in character.

I'd rather see things like people not seeing rumors related to themselves or outside of their circles, and that when people spread rumors, there is some policy about how offensive they can actually be - for example, it should be fine to imply that someone is a whore by discussing their behavior, but name-calling itself might not be viewed as rumor-worthy in and of itself.

I'm also pondering if rumors should be pre-approved by staff or the bardic guild, and if spending IP ought to allow people to comment more often on rumor threads they've already participated in.

[Voxumo]

I'd rather see things like people not seeing rumors related to themselves or outside of their circles

Would there be an option to allow it to be shared? For example, lets say character A is the subject of a rumor, but because it's about them, speaking of the rumor is avoided when they are around 'Aka they can't see the rumor/purchase it/ however if Character A has a concerned friend, who happens to hear the rumor, could concerned friend share said rumor. This would create interesting rp, as it would mean the only way you can even learn of a rumor about yourself is by someone rping about it, or sharing it with you, which requires rp as well. Same could go for circles.

I'm also pondering if rumors should be pre-approved by staff or the bardic guild, and if spending IP ought to allow people to comment more often on rumor threads they've already participated in

If this does happen, I'd prefer it be pre-approved by staff. While icly it would make sense for the Bards to have some say, well you can't always depend on them to be around, given it's one of our more recent, borderline inactive guilds as of late. At least staff having to pre-approve them, we know there is typically a single staff active, at the very least, and we don't have to worry about rumors getting lost in the system waiting to be approved.

[Tremere]

I really dislike the idea of cutting people out of rumors. I think that that's just going to further cut off rp and make the system even worse. I really think that having a way to investigate rumors would be a better way because it opens up further rp opportunities. Even that might not solve all of the issues, but I think it would do better.

[Zeita]

I'm not keen on the solution of making rumors ICly spread by the characters who raise them; I am fairly certain that it will kill the rumor system. Not because people aren't willing to take responsibility for what their characters do, but because a lot of people don't see their characters as actually the sort to gossip, so if rumors were to be spread from their characters specifically, they just wouldn't do it as a matter of staying in character.

I'd rather see things like people not seeing rumors related to themselves or outside of their circles, and that when people spread rumors, there is some policy about how offensive they can actually be - for example, it should be fine to imply that someone is a whore by discussing their behavior, but name-calling itself might not be viewed as rumor-worthy in and of itself.

I'm also pondering if rumors should be pre-approved by staff or the bardic guild, and if spending IP ought to allow people to comment more often on rumor threads they've already participated in.

Bards used to be able to veto rumors- it ended up, pretty much, in a far more fluffy/toothless rumor system, because there was going to be at least one bard out there taking exception to most rumors. I'd be fine with staff approving, just add it to a queue similar to how requests are received staff-side.

I'm fine with the rumor target not being able to see rumors about themselves, makes sense to me for reasons outlined by others elsewhere.

[Silrie]

I've got to agree with not really liking the idea of the target of a rumor not being able to see a rumor about themselves for a few reasons.

1. Unless some of the other approval methods are implemented, and I know Kinaed listed that as a possibility which is awesome, I feel things won't change either. If people know their flack can't be seen by the target, I feel it gives them free license to be even nastier.
2. What if you yourself begin a rumor about a shop or an event or an idea or something you have for sale, etc, and you'd like to see the responses regarding it. Granted, this should be spread icly through rp, I agree with this, but at the moment, a lot of the time, it's not. If a person is cut out of rumor regarding themselves, it makes little sense to be all, "Oh, I started a rumor about my shop... er... can you tell me what's being said?" When it makes more sense to me that they'd be keeping more of a finger on the pulse of said rumor.

This thread has spawned a lot of ideas and suggestions! It's great to read!

[Kinaed]

... Unless some of the other approval methods are implemented, and I know Kinaed listed that as a possibility which is awesome, I feel things won't change either. If people know their flack can't be seen by the target, I feel it gives them free license to be even nastier.

In our theme, there's nothing wrong with hate-mongering and spite. The game actually centrally focuses on people killing one another for being different, torturing, lies, and all sorts of machinations. TI just isn't a rosey atmosphere. To some degree, people who don't like a bit of arsenic with their tea probably will never find TI's environment to be fully satisfying. I'd feel it'd be a betrayal of what TI is about if the staff started judging people and trying to change their gameplay because of how nasty their character's IC behavior is. I am generally not prepared to try to force players to dumb down their baser IC behaviors beyond the rules we already inherited from Tam's time. OOCly, absolutely be nice, but ICly it's deemed too much to call someone a whore? That doesn't sit well with me, personally.

I honestly don't feel that nasty rumors are a problem in themselves; in raising this topic, I was not trying to discourage people from being ICly nasty at all. I was interested to see what the pbase thinks, and am personally mostly concerned about people getting OOCly upset by what's happening in their IC world. I consider IC and OOC separation a fundamental player responsibility, though I acknowledge that human nature makes some of it harder than others.

It's interesting that I detect a few different player angles reading this:

1. One camp that just finds the rumor system unnecessarily brutal, and thus not fun.
2. One camp that doesn't mind the brutality, but does mind that they can't figure out who the bastard was that did it so they can get revenge.
3. And one camp that thinks that fairness is a luxury, and reducing the brutality of the rumor system weakens the 'gritty' atmosphere of the game.

In any case, my personal stance is camp 3, which means that it's a difficult mental exercise for me to get into accepting the stance of the people who voted that TI's rumors are too nasty since it's not just against where I stand, but a hop-skip-and-jump over the middle ground between us. I'm working on it and trying to convince myself to at least embrace the fact that so many of TI's players can't be wrong if they feel a certain way, but please be patient, it sometimes takes awhile for these things to settle in and the mental lightbulb to switch on.

[Gerolf]

So I kept out of this topic (for the most part) by stating that I ignore the system, and for the most part that is true. I figure if someone has a problem with my character they will say it to my face or it is just fear and lies.

I kind of tie it to today's politics in most well governed societies. At least in America one side is always saying mean nasty things about the other side. Doesn't make them true and I think as long as that is the understanding (that people lie) then they remain interesting.

I also have to add that one thing I like about TI is the fact that Staff stay out of RP except when invited in. I have played MUDs where staff watch everything all the time and can interfere with stuff they don't like. I am not saying any of the staff today would alter or reject rumors that were directed towards their alts, but do we want to open that door of temptation?

So I guess I am in the fourth camp: I don't care what people say in the rumors because 80% of it is lies anyway but people should be allowed to lie. I have found it has little affect on my character's opinion of their self worth.