Retainer Upkeep Costs

[Annalesa]

Before I begin this, let me say that I whole heartedly support the new cost scheme for upkeep as a general framework. To me it makes great logical sense.

However, I cannot help but acknowledge that even with the new compensation scheme I've heard about, I believe that the new costs are simply too onerously high. Even playing a gentry, just having a good horse and body guard is going to take up almost all of your money even with guild employment, and these are things that these characters would very logically and thematically have in the course of the world in my opinion.

Please also bear in mind that I am coming at this as somebody who NEVER has a horse and only had a bodyguard on my noble because of theme, so it doesn't effect me much directly one way or another. However, it does effect plenty of my common RP partners, so I do want to speak up with my idea.

My ideas on this are simple and two-pronged:

1. Make the lower end guards the cost of cheap horses or slightly more expensive (say 750 silver), and make a mid-tier guard. Right now, there is really only two options from what I've seen. Make a mid-tier that is the current cost of the basic one.

OR

2. My main proposal on how to keep the costs more reasonable but still take a bit if people get excessive with their retainers is to go with making the costs be an OOC month instead of an OOC week. However, up the cost to 15% of the retainer's original cost.

In the case that I'm calculating it from, it would still be a good chunk of their income (roughly half) and would still cost a good deal to keep a crazy amount of retainers, but it would not be quite so painful as basically costing people almost all of their incomes just to have ONE good guard and ONE good horse. I feel the core of the idea is fantastic, but it could use a little tweaking.

[Dice]

While I agree the costs are too high for the current incomes people are receiving, I think that actually having a bodyguard should be in no way normal for your average gentry - in fact, it should be something reserved for the seriously wealthy or those extremely likely to be targeted, like nobles. But at 5%, one lesser bodyguard and one Charali horse should cost you a total of 150/week - not too ridiculous considering actual PC salaries we pay, and pretty doable for a gentry making 250/week.

I'd rather see salaries raised as a fix, though.

[Gerolf]

I'd rather see salaries raised as a fix, though.

Supply side verus Demand side economics, TI edition.


I will say though that I think one unintended consequence is that there is a market for cheaper alternatives. I'd make a PC who sells Body Guardinf services for 50 a week. Cheaper than the NPC.

[Temi]

I will say though that I think one unintended consequence is that there is a market for cheaper alternatives. I'd make a PC who sells Body Guardinf services for 50 a week. Cheaper than the NPC.

Not an unintended consequence. Intended consequence. Kin wants PCs to be cheaper than NPCs.

[BattleJenkins]

Unfortunately, NPC bodyguards have a huge advantage over PC bodyguards in that they can always be around! I think this is probably the main reason you don't see more PC bodyguards, rather than it being a cost issue.

[Rabek]

Definitely what BattleJenkins said. Who wants a bodyguard that won't be there fifty percent of the time or more? That's effectively useless.

I do agree that most people shouldn't have/need a bodyguard, but we shouldn't price these things around gentry. Gentry make the most. Pricing them around nobility is better. They make far less and need guards far more.

[Temi]

Unfortunately, NPC bodyguards have a huge advantage over PC bodyguards in that they can always be around! I think this is probably the main reason you don't see more PC bodyguards, rather than it being a cost issue.

They will still have this advantage, but you will now be paying for it, rather than them being both cheaper to keep -and- around all the time.

We discussed a lot of these things among staff and came to a consensus that was lower than the initial proposal. We still have some potential concerns, but this at least seems doable. We expect that it will 1) make bodyguards and especially fancy horses more of a luxury than an expectation for those who don't really need them, 2) make it more desirable to hire PCs than NPCs, 3) cause people to make some decisions on what really matters to them, 4) still be possible to be a squishy nob with protection, 5) require additional income beyond auto-staff payments to support an impressive flock of retainers.

As someone with characters that will be hit as well, I understand the worries and I have them too, but we care about getting this right and will keep pushing to ensure it's balanced. If you have additional concerns, please feel free to let us know.

[Tremere]

I'm just a little concerned because I've seen the argument 'the players earn enough money to afford it' used every now and then to justify an increase in the price point of something. And taken individually, sure we might be able to. But when you take everything that a player needs to pay for at their class level to maintain it, I think it becomes a bit more unreasonable. Perhaps the richest of the PC's can comfortably handle these prices, but that's only the richest. This ends up becoming more of an xp sink than a gold sink, as it will require players to divert xp to buying gold to be able to afford this, even if they don't have an obscene number of guards. I think if that are concerns about having -too- many guards, then the solution should be to limit the number of guards more heavily than it is now, not to take away even more gold and force players into what is going to be a rather tedious and not fun juggling of funds. I've got enough money issues IRL, I don't want to have to obsess over my bills in game as well.

[Pixie]

What if retainer costs were based on what an average income would be for the guard you have? If you're employing an icky freeman, max of 25 silver salary. If you're employing pretty gentry, much pricier?

[BattleJenkins]

Something that I think might go hand in hand with this - now that guards are required to be paid for regularly, I think the class-specific restrictions on number of retainers/pets should probably be removed, now that the cost of upkeep provides a more intuitive and practical limit. As a Freeman GL, I risk running into the limit constantly - I had to kill my pet quail to have two bodyguards when I learned there was a plot on my character's life! And I basically don't get a horse, either...