Mage Rec Levels and Risk Factors

[Kuzco]

Magic is a tool. I've seen some people create major, irreversible change using magic among other tools like intrigue, political power, seduction, and murder.
Some mages have succesfully evaded capture or even detection for years, while advancing their agenda. Their agenda is never 'topple or weaken the Order', because that's against theme.
The Order is buffed by design, but it has easily half the player base passively or actively working against them.
Mages have lots of advantages that the Order can never get. It's not hard at all to keep the Order ignorant or misdirected. Sure, if it comes down to combat, if the Order's boot finally comes crashing down on you, then yes they will very likely win -- they have all the money and firepower in the world. But they are slow, limited, and short sighted.

[galaxgal]

Their agenda is never 'topple or weaken the Order', because that's against theme.

Individual Order characters have been compromised, corrupted, or just outright killed in the game's history. While probably not a widespread status quo change that totally alters lore, I think that counts as weakening the Order, and is entirely within theme.

But I don't believe the issue at hand is about some 'faction balance' between Order and Mages per se. Just that most of the incentives in play tend to point both parties into playing passively (the Order because their policy-viable investigative tools are so limited & tend to only work reactively, and mages because it tends to be elaborate, difficult, and of extreme risk to incorporate magic as a means of getting to a reasonable goal that isn't 'terrorize the local populace for a bit'.)

[Alpharius]

I think the argument of 'mages cannot influence events to create a lasting change' does not apply to just mage characters, but to every TI character. It's safe to say (no offense to anyone) that there are certain characters that have made impact on the game through their IC actions and by taking risks, and are still remembered to this day. There are many more who aren't written in the history books... and that's normal. Not everyone gets to be the protagonist of the main story. Some people might end up being very important people in the narrative, but that's because they actively took part and did things. I'd not expect anyone to be just handed a lasting legacy, a big mark upon lore or IC fame unless they put the work into it.

As for mages not having a goal, you don't necessarily have to use your powers to terrorize anyone. By messing with the playerbase I do not mean antagonizing and killing people, I mean messing with them to give them character development and RP. Mages have a LOT OF power at their disposal that allows them to do things and set up events for other players that non-mages cannot do.

The fact that mages have to conspire and think of creative ways to utilize their magic is very themely IMO. The Order might be ruling with an iron fist, but they can only control what happens directly... and mages have a lot of indirect ways of doing things. As stated before, the Order is reactive. As long as you don't go around doing suicidal stuff like publicly casting spells on the streets or telling people sketchy stuff and managing to get reported, then your chances of being able to avoid the Order suddenly become very, very high.

[Kuzco]

Their agenda is never 'topple or weaken the Order', because that's against theme.

Individual Order characters have been compromised, corrupted, or just outright killed in the game's history. While probably not a widespread status quo change that totally alters lore, I think that counts as weakening the Order, and is entirely within theme.

But I don't believe the issue at hand is about some 'faction balance' between Order and Mages per se. Just that most of the incentives in play tend to point both parties into playing passively (the Order because their policy-viable investigative tools are so limited & tend to only work reactively, and mages because it tends to be elaborate, difficult, and of extreme risk to incorporate magic as a means of getting to a reasonable goal that isn't 'terrorize the local populace for a bit'.)

Yes of course, I meant the Order as a background institution, not the Lithmore City subset of it.

[galaxgal]

Their agenda is never 'topple or weaken the Order', because that's against theme.

Individual Order characters have been compromised, corrupted, or just outright killed in the game's history. While probably not a widespread status quo change that totally alters lore, I think that counts as weakening the Order, and is entirely within theme.

But I don't believe the issue at hand is about some 'faction balance' between Order and Mages per se. Just that most of the incentives in play tend to point both parties into playing passively (the Order because their policy-viable investigative tools are so limited & tend to only work reactively, and mages because it tends to be elaborate, difficult, and of extreme risk to incorporate magic as a means of getting to a reasonable goal that isn't 'terrorize the local populace for a bit'.)

Yes of course, I meant the Order as a background institution, not the Lithmore City subset of it.

I kind of thought so -- just wanted to emphasize the point. TI's strongest point for me has still always what can happen interpersonally, rather than on a setting-wide scale.

[Geras]

I do think the rec level for magery is a bit too high right now.

I think there is a bit of a fundamental problem with the game, in that mages don't really have any rational reasons to take risks, and the more time you invest in your mage, the more disincentive you have to take any risks.

I'm not sure what the best way to solve that is though. What are the rewards mages could seek out that wouldn't unbalance the game?

[Kuzco]

I can think of many, but magic as an end and not a means is often too dangerous to pursue.
Magic can be used for easy power, influence, information, money, crime, etc. If you think it as a means, it's just a shortcut to stuff. You can work without it just fine, taking the long road, and it's what most people do.
When it comes down to it, it all depends on your goal, and what are you willing to risk for it.

[Geras]

I really don't think magic is a shortcut to much in this game given the time investment it requires. And I don't think that's a problem.

[Puciek]

Pretty sure reco for mages is now a lot lower than it used to be - at whopping 70% at one point. And then if you play a mage, but don't take any risks then you are unlikely to utilize that rec bonus because, well, that character is unlikely to die. And also won't earn all the reco you earn for taking actual risks (Remember that it's perfectly fine to recommend yourself if your PC put itself in danger and no player recommended it), honestly, my non-mage troublemakers tend to climb the reco ladder quite fast and then, inevitably, cash it in.

I really don't have a problem with getting a lot of death XP, or QP, you can then eventually "free" it and use it to do something hopefully fun for the whole game. Like roll a rich, powerful and connected noble with amazing amount of resources, stats and skills like out of chargen so you can then directly affect the world right away. Does the 20% to death exp really matter that much?

I don't think so, it's difference of 5-6 after-risk recos difference at most. My much bigger worry is that passive mages superficially inflate the population, and that's a problem as the game works best when the number of active mages is at that very specific sweet spot. Too much and it's, well, too much. Too little and mages can never get the ball rolling to even train together due to how uneven the game becomes. But if people roll mages, and then do nothing, that ratio is pretty impossible to maintain.

[galaxgal]

The rec level scales with your magic skill level, or at least did like 2 years ago. It goes up to 50% at max iirc.

That said, I don't think the idea of reimbursing mages is in of itself a problem. It's more the means of getting it (which can be done with 0 interaction and 2 learn slot investments, then ignoring the magic side of the character altogether.)