Greetings Player!
We're looking to introduce built-in mechanisms for players to move up and down the social strata (though we're concentrating on up). Here's what the staff have worked out, around things such as freemen clawing their way to nobility and the like:
- A new purchase command 'purchase advantage <advantage>' will be created to replace purchasing wealth, purchasing one's hometown, purchasing income, purchasing an inheritance (such as a noble title), natural magery, and such.
- Freemen becoming gentry must purchase the wealth advantage or become a GL. By purchasing wealth or being set as a GL, they will be set to gentry automatically, for free.
- Gentry becoming nobility must be accepted at court through the seeking process (we'll rename the Nobles Guild the Lithmorran Court), then get enobled by the monarch. This may be through marriage, or by the monarch granting an available title.
- The game will only allow people to purchase nobility in chargen if there are less than 20% of active players in-game who fit the bill.
- Once a week the game runs a batch job and may select an heir (noble who purchase the heir advantage) if we're under the active threshold of players. The heir must be active, and cannot be a person who has purchased nobility after being gentry. This heir will be 'tapped' to 'come into their own' at this stage, and the selection is random.
- The monarch will get a guild command that lets them know if they have an enoblement slot to give out. They can only enoble when they have a slot. They can only enoble gentry who are in the "Lithmorran Court" guild. Enobling a player will automatically set their class to nobility, for free. (How we determine how many slots and when is something the staff are still working on).
- Dropping down social class is as simple as contacting the staff and requesting it with an IC reason.
Do you like it? Questions, comments? Post below!
Introducing Class Fluidity
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RabbleRouser
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:23 pm
What? A free 15,000 XP advantage just for being a GL?.. I STRONGLY object to this as currently worded.. They should STILL have to buy it.. It should just be available.- Freeman becoming gentry must purchase the wealth advantage or become a GL. By purchasing wealth or being set as a GL, they will be set to gentry automatically, for free.
This basically means that anyone that makes GL gets 15,000 XP free just for doing it but ONLY if they have not already paid for Gentry or Noble status, in which case they get nothing.
I see this as a SNUB for anyone that actually bought their status, especially if they then become a GL.
Only way I see this as being fair is if GL status is a status of it's own that is equivalent to whatever standing that GL position would hold but is NOT the same as GENTRY status. Being GL would NOT open the wealth channels of being a Gentry, as the money is tied to the Guild and not themselves.. But it would allow them to then BUY gentry status to get the wealth without any further hoops to be jumped through, HOWEVER, if a GL that has not bought the gentry status loses their GL position, they would revert back to a freeman... This would make GL it's OWN status setting that allows all Gentry perks BUT the wealth, including the gentry/noble surname but a status that does not in itself have ANY XP connected to it.
Last edited by RabbleRouser on Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The staff believe that people who RP their way successfully to these things shouldn't have to pay as much, or the same, amount as those players who simply choose to create themselves at a certain level in chargen.
We want to offer IC paths for advancement that recognize and support RP rather than force players not to make desired attempts because they don't have the XP available.
We want to offer IC paths for advancement that recognize and support RP rather than force players not to make desired attempts because they don't have the XP available.
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RabbleRouser
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:23 pm
They get XP for RPing. That's what it comes from... They already earn their 15,000 XP through RP without having to have any EXTRA, unfair backscratching on top of already getting a GL position.. It's adding extra reward ontop of what is ALREADY a reward in itslf and snubs anyone that does not make GL status or already had their Gentry or Noble status when they got GL. It's simply not fair to anyone in the game to make this kind of radical departure from the EARN it rule.Kinaed wrote:The staff believe that people who RP their way successfully to these things shouldn't have to pay as much, or the same, amount as those players who simply choose to create themselves at a certain level in chargen.
We want to offer IC paths for advancement that recognize and support RP rather than force players not to make desired attempts because they don't have the XP available.
Fairness is subjective. I'll note that you view getting a GLship as a reward, and I can concur that view has some merit, but I'm not sure to what degree.
The staff generally agree that people who work their way up ICly on an RP game paying the the same as someone stepping foot into chargen and simply laying out XP to get to an equal level in the game is also 'unfair'. The first can take months of hard work invested in a particular character and the second requires minimal commitment. However, we also recognize that players in this position, if they have the XP for anything grand, are likely doing so based on a lot of XP they had previously earned, and quite possibly just lost a major character to be able to do so.
I may agree that maybe it shouldn't be 100% free, but I'd like to see some comments from other players at large around where they sit on the issue?
Also, please note that this is only one aspect of the overall view to get class mobility up and running in-game. I'd love to see discussion around the many items that go into that cohesive game change rather than a narrow focus on one item. I've taken the point at this stage that things perhaps ought not to be 'free' for consideration. Thanks for the feedback!
The staff generally agree that people who work their way up ICly on an RP game paying the the same as someone stepping foot into chargen and simply laying out XP to get to an equal level in the game is also 'unfair'. The first can take months of hard work invested in a particular character and the second requires minimal commitment. However, we also recognize that players in this position, if they have the XP for anything grand, are likely doing so based on a lot of XP they had previously earned, and quite possibly just lost a major character to be able to do so.
I may agree that maybe it shouldn't be 100% free, but I'd like to see some comments from other players at large around where they sit on the issue?
Also, please note that this is only one aspect of the overall view to get class mobility up and running in-game. I'd love to see discussion around the many items that go into that cohesive game change rather than a narrow focus on one item. I've taken the point at this stage that things perhaps ought not to be 'free' for consideration. Thanks for the feedback!
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RabbleRouser
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:23 pm
I have no problems with any other part, but the one point of freeism is enough that I don't like ANY of it, so my vote is not maybe with comment... It's absolutely not.. Drop that one point or change it and I can be swung to a maybe.. But I have no other points to argue... Just the one that burns me personally, along with any other person that HAS been GL and failed to make Gentry status despite all their efforts, and those that will have already bought their status and THEN make GL ingame. In the first case, you are changing the rules of the land to make possible what was not before and there should be major INGAME changes to laws and stuff around that and not just a decision... The second is the whole matter of 15,000 free XP that only freeman that make GL status can get.. You make it that nobles or Gentry that make GL get it as XP, and it is more palatible but will still taste like someone wizzed in the soup to me, completely on the reward on top of reward and FREE XP... Make it a whole different status as I stated above and situation is fixed completely - No free XP, no getting something for free someone else had to pay for, and it just becomes part of being a GL that only has any effect if you don't already have better by your own merits.
The game needs to improve. The fact that you had a character that failed is most likely because the mechanism didn't exist for that character to advance. In making the mechanism, we're improving the game, to make it better for everyone next time around, with equal access to all players across the board. In this vein, I'd urge you to not consider our thoughts as a snub or insult.
This said, we've decided that a monarch will purchase the ability to enoble players with their own personal influence points.
Influence points are something we're working on now to allow players to purchase special 'perks' or 'commands' in game based on how they choose to expend their points. Influence points will be calculated on various aspects of the game, such as one's social class, one's title, one's support, and other things as we believe they fit into the scheme. Then, players can invest these points to "do stuff". For example, if we have a sphere of military influence, perhaps two nobles can have a battle? We've got another thread discussing perks and spheres of influence for players to consider, and would love feedback!
This said, we've decided that a monarch will purchase the ability to enoble players with their own personal influence points.
Influence points are something we're working on now to allow players to purchase special 'perks' or 'commands' in game based on how they choose to expend their points. Influence points will be calculated on various aspects of the game, such as one's social class, one's title, one's support, and other things as we believe they fit into the scheme. Then, players can invest these points to "do stuff". For example, if we have a sphere of military influence, perhaps two nobles can have a battle? We've got another thread discussing perks and spheres of influence for players to consider, and would love feedback!
I vote no, for as it's presented. I have two main issues.
One? Gentry is far too easy to earn in this system. GLs have far too fast a turnover in many guilds for that to be a valid method, in my opinion. If GL status gives gentry for free, then my second point becomes even more important.
Losing status should not be limited to an OOC request to the staff for it to happen. There needs to be rules for losing status as much as gaining status. If your gentry status comes from leading a guild, it should be dependent on that, or making sure if you lose the guild, you have another way to rationalize gentry status. If it comes from money, you should be required to have some form of upkeep for this. Buying wealth every so often, perhaps, or a tax, or something that requires effort. It's far too easy to give out and never take away unless you want it taken away.
As for the nobility, I think it sounds mostly reasonable, assuming the monarch has to give a valid IC reason for granting the title. Anything from bribes to good works for the kingdom, I don't care, as long as there's a reason for it.
One? Gentry is far too easy to earn in this system. GLs have far too fast a turnover in many guilds for that to be a valid method, in my opinion. If GL status gives gentry for free, then my second point becomes even more important.
Losing status should not be limited to an OOC request to the staff for it to happen. There needs to be rules for losing status as much as gaining status. If your gentry status comes from leading a guild, it should be dependent on that, or making sure if you lose the guild, you have another way to rationalize gentry status. If it comes from money, you should be required to have some form of upkeep for this. Buying wealth every so often, perhaps, or a tax, or something that requires effort. It's far too easy to give out and never take away unless you want it taken away.
As for the nobility, I think it sounds mostly reasonable, assuming the monarch has to give a valid IC reason for granting the title. Anything from bribes to good works for the kingdom, I don't care, as long as there's a reason for it.
I think that's some wonderful feedback, Rabek! I need to think about how we might do it.
I think what we're getting at is that guildleadership ought not to be linked to gentry in the sense of automatically conferring it. However, in many cases, GLship doesn't make sense if a person is not, at minimum, gentry. In an application basis, we can hand that out, but in a real game-play basis, we cannot.
It kinda hurts to make a gentry requirement on becoming a GL though - because we want to keep continuity in guilds and actually push players in the guild who can be GLs to become them when a GL turns over rather than looking at apps. If we make getting to gentry on your own a requirement, though, then we're increasing the number of positions staff have to handle through app.
My overall goal is to make the game playable to achieve these roles with absolutely NO STAFF intervention or application. This is in part because I feel applications are subjective and players can make wonderful story without us, and in part because we're just too small to handle the workload we have to a level of effective player satisfaction.
Anyway, these are just thoughts at the moment. Again, the feedback is deeply appreciated. Thank you!
I think what we're getting at is that guildleadership ought not to be linked to gentry in the sense of automatically conferring it. However, in many cases, GLship doesn't make sense if a person is not, at minimum, gentry. In an application basis, we can hand that out, but in a real game-play basis, we cannot.
It kinda hurts to make a gentry requirement on becoming a GL though - because we want to keep continuity in guilds and actually push players in the guild who can be GLs to become them when a GL turns over rather than looking at apps. If we make getting to gentry on your own a requirement, though, then we're increasing the number of positions staff have to handle through app.
My overall goal is to make the game playable to achieve these roles with absolutely NO STAFF intervention or application. This is in part because I feel applications are subjective and players can make wonderful story without us, and in part because we're just too small to handle the workload we have to a level of effective player satisfaction.
Anyway, these are just thoughts at the moment. Again, the feedback is deeply appreciated. Thank you!
I like a lot of these ideas, but here's my spin on them.
Abolish wealth and gentry as coded tags. Make all the benefits associated with both into purchasable perks. Now being wealthy and/or gentry is as simple as having the wealth and power to back it up.
Make nobility the sole discretion of the Monarch, Seneschal and current PC Nobles/Court Members, as with any other guild. They have their own set of exclusive perks, and it's up to them who they share that power with and who they take it away from. If players want to 'app in' a new noble character, they'll have to take it up with whatever players currently have a Noble character. Now nobility really is a social game in and of itself.
Taking this a step further, all guilds would have their own exclusive perks to offer. If Nobility membership is meant to be the most desirable, simply make Noble perks the most desirable.
Alternately, abolish class as coded altogether, make everything into purchasable perks, and Nobility is now simply a matter of whoever happens to control land via the support mechanism. Even the throne could now theoretically be won away from the current monarch.
If we're giving guilds their own sets of perks, not all guild perks need be available to every member. Perhaps specific perks are tied to specific ranks, editable by guild leaders. Perhaps perks are merely unlocked and now available for purchase. Perhaps a combination of both! Perhaps guilds and organizations have their own pools of influence separate from their members' pools of influence, that leaders may use to decide which perks are actually available to their members. Maybe members get to vote where their points go. Now guilds and organizations are malleable.
If we want to keep going, we can dissolve guilds and organizations as coded altogether. Players can split up their personal influence points into pools and allow other people into specific pools. These shared pools of influence are now the basis of guilds and organizations. Being a part of a guild or organization is now a matter of being allowed into that pool of influence.
Between this thread and the Influence Points thread I think we're starting to see a whole new level of gameplay emerge, and that is really exciting to me.
Abolish wealth and gentry as coded tags. Make all the benefits associated with both into purchasable perks. Now being wealthy and/or gentry is as simple as having the wealth and power to back it up.
Make nobility the sole discretion of the Monarch, Seneschal and current PC Nobles/Court Members, as with any other guild. They have their own set of exclusive perks, and it's up to them who they share that power with and who they take it away from. If players want to 'app in' a new noble character, they'll have to take it up with whatever players currently have a Noble character. Now nobility really is a social game in and of itself.
Taking this a step further, all guilds would have their own exclusive perks to offer. If Nobility membership is meant to be the most desirable, simply make Noble perks the most desirable.
Alternately, abolish class as coded altogether, make everything into purchasable perks, and Nobility is now simply a matter of whoever happens to control land via the support mechanism. Even the throne could now theoretically be won away from the current monarch.
If we're giving guilds their own sets of perks, not all guild perks need be available to every member. Perhaps specific perks are tied to specific ranks, editable by guild leaders. Perhaps perks are merely unlocked and now available for purchase. Perhaps a combination of both! Perhaps guilds and organizations have their own pools of influence separate from their members' pools of influence, that leaders may use to decide which perks are actually available to their members. Maybe members get to vote where their points go. Now guilds and organizations are malleable.
If we want to keep going, we can dissolve guilds and organizations as coded altogether. Players can split up their personal influence points into pools and allow other people into specific pools. These shared pools of influence are now the basis of guilds and organizations. Being a part of a guild or organization is now a matter of being allowed into that pool of influence.
Between this thread and the Influence Points thread I think we're starting to see a whole new level of gameplay emerge, and that is really exciting to me.
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