Arrest improvement

[Gerolf]

Assuming Beronica and I were in the same arrest scene, I agree. It took about an hour for what should have been a 20 minute scene.

Now I am not saying that I know what theme would be, but in real life, today, if the cops beat on some one until they pass out, typically that is lawsuit time. I think theme-wise it wouldn't be an issue BUT as far as I can tell, you could RP out an over zealous Reeve just straight up beating a person to death. That would not be cool.

So basically what I am saying is there needs to be some sort of change, but I don't know what the change should be. Ideally, we are adults here and if the Earl Marshal or Justiciar says: your under arrest you should submit or fight back. Make the RP interesting at least.

[Haeva]

This idea stems from a scene that I was in. While I'm happy to have my RP criticized, I think it is perfectly to adult to roleplay principle in your characters. In this particular case, Haeva wan't going to strike the Earl Marshall, but nor was she going to submit peacefully. Civil disobedience is a common practice as a way of protest, and I see no IC reason that would not true. It's an IC quandary on what to do if someone refuses to submit, whether your character wants to physically force them, or let it go. I didn't think the OOC pressure placed on me during the scene to simply submit, nor do I think this idea, has any weight.

[Dice]

But that's just the problem - in real life you don't have to beat somebody to literal unconsciousness, to the threshold of death itself, to cuff them. If there was some more moderate middle path in the code beyond 'don't arrest' or 'beat to near death' that represented the ability to forcefully subdue someone without having to inflict almost-mortal wounds, it would make sense - but there's not any coded way to model this logical IC path.

[Tremere]

But that's just the problem - in real life you don't have to beat somebody to literal unconsciousness, to the threshold of death itself, to cuff them. If there was some more moderate middle path in the code beyond 'don't arrest' or 'beat to near death' that represented the ability to forcefully subdue someone without having to inflict almost-mortal wounds, it would make sense - but there's not any coded way to model this logical IC path.

This is exactly what I was going for when I proposed this and the thought process behind it.

[Kinaed]

Beating someone to submission isn't necessarily killing them, you have to type 'finish' to kill someone.

If a person doesn't do anything, and are being 'civilly disobedient', at some stage you're going to have to take a swing and take responsibility for doing so. Since the victim can submit at any time until they CANNOT submit because they're incapacitated, it seems to me like if you beat them enough and they're willing to give in after an intimidating whack, even at only 10% HP down, then the system doesn't need to change. Rather, the dynamics between players need to change; if you're taking hits and that would scare your character to back down, then type submit. It's like back in the confession chambers when an Inquisitor is literally pulling someone's toenails off and the character in the seat glares at you with a stiff upper lip... well now, that probably isn't reasonable.

I think in the case of Haeva just sitting there and refusing to submit, someone should have hit her and kept on hitting her until she either submitted (sorry, Haeva, nothing personal) or was soft enough to carry away (incapacitated) just like you'd have to irl.

Code can't do everything, it takes time to program changes, and there is nothing actually wrong with this system. I mean no disrespect and apologize if I'm wrong, but what I'm perceiving in this thread is that some players who are arresting someone don't want to take responsibility for the act of doing so, or are perhaps afraid their combat skills aren't high enough to successfully ensure an arrest - but both of those requirements are intentional in the game system.

[Dice]

I see the existence of 'finish' as an OOC courtesy that doesn't make much sense on any IC level. Beating somebody to 0 hp may not have any risk of killing them codewise, because you have to type finish. But ICly, I don't think you can see it as anything BUT the threshold of death itself. So it's not a sense of not wanting to take responsibility - it's a sense that that's a level of brutality that isn't in any way logical for what's happening.

People fight arrest all the time in the real world and they don't have to be knocked unconscious to get cuffs on them. They get shoved down, pinned, grappled, cuffs slammed on, etc. (I know because my parents just LOVE watching Cops...) I think it's exceedingly rare that people actually get beaten into submission to be arrested because there really are these less-damaging approaches used every day.

Perhaps it's different on TI because the state of being arrested is so much more POWERFUL than cuffs in the real world (unless it's been changed, can't fight back, can't resist being moved, etc.) But in that case, I'd say arrest itself should be weaker but easier to get. Right now, it just doesn't feel as if the code supports logical and reasonable RP.

That said, it's far from the worst problem in the world... it's just a weird, awkward situation where the response to "I won't submit" is "I will beat you mostly to death."

[Gerolf]

I think in the case of Haeva just sitting there and refusing to submit, someone should have hit her and kept on hitting her until she either submitted (sorry, Haeva, nothing personal) or was soft enough to carry away (incapacitated) just like you'd have to irl.

And ultimately this is what happened. The scene took as long as it should have, and maybe thinking about it longer nothing that was done or said was out of line, but it just seems, clunky.

I like the idea of being able to grapple someone, though I don't know how that would work codewise. Maybe a function of unarmed combat?

[Kinaed]

We've focused a lot on the behavior of the arrestee, but I think it's worth saying: If your character would not beat someone to incapacity to continue the struggle in order to strap manacles on him/her, then you should let them go.

Manacles are NOT handcuffs, they're typically big unwieldy hunks of metal secured with screws. TI is also a game where the "fairness" factor in determining if someone has the oomph to arrest someone is mechanically combat code. Arresters need to pass a test which is not "knock someone down to 25%" of their health first, but beat them down and sit on their immobilized ass until you can put manacles on them or accept the fact that you probably do not deserve, in game terms, to complete the arrest. The tone of this encounter is not simply set by the arrester to be what they want, they have to respond to what the arrestee is doing with dignity and respect. In the case of your civilly disobedient... boot to the head.

By nature, if someone doesn't type "submit", then they are resisting arrest.

[Geras]

You can physically restrain someone without breaking their jaw and giving them a concussion though. At least if you know what you're doing. That's the distinction Kinky - that the arrester would be willing to use force, but a different kind of force that isn't as well supported by code.

[Zeita]

I think the point Kinaed is making there is that putting manacles is not a quick whip on like handcuffs that could be done as a result of just grabbing them, but would take a few minutes to set up, wherein if your victim was resisting in any way, it would be near impossible. That is my take on it. I wouldn't want to be arrested on 25-50%. Either would probably just be a single blow on Zeita.

That said, on a tangent, the ability to grab hold of someone in combat would be useful- make their attacks less effective and easier for a 3rd combatant to hit.