Whoinvis Discussion General /WDG/

[kipperialovskii]

The intent of whoinvis, as per Kinaed's point, was being directly contrasted by its use. Hence the change. If a mechanic is used against its intended purpose, I think it's perfectly fine for it to be changed or altered to something more self-sustaining.

The intent of the wholist, and whereRP is an invitation to RP, and to tell people you're online. These are not IC things. IE: You can't really say 'I hear there's a ton of people at River square!' unless there's a huge party being advertised, or the bells signalling the Faithful to come to river square. But you can most definitely stumble into a scene unaware. But it's not advantageous. You just know when you can send tells, messengers, and are able to actively RP with someone.

But it's these compromises that allow players, new and old, to find RP in a relatively large map, and keep things bustling.

I believe it's more troubling, as Kinaed had stated, that whoinvis was being used as crutch, rather than its intended purpose. The RPXP is refundable upon death, is a relatively low cost, and exists to make you question if you truly need it. If it was truly targeting, it would be far more harsh rather than a mechanical compromise to make you think.

I don't think this needs to be a hostile topic. But it's a little shocking to see so many people get upset over it.

[Kinaed]

I didn't get time to do up the spec over lunch, so the short version is:

- Every one hour of visible RP earns a player 20 min of WHOINVIS time to a cap of 6 OOC hours. This can be used however a player wishes.

- If a player wants more WHOINVIS time than that, they can buy it with XP (the rate will be higher than the original suggestion as this would be purchased "beyond free allottment".

[Lei]

I can get behind this compromise. Thanks, Kinaed.

[Kinaed]

Always happy to work through people's concerns to the best of our ability. Thank you, everyone, for the feedback.

[Andruid]

Per a previous point, covert concern over meta gaming issues (like some that you have brought up), have been historically normally. However, the sort of rumors that Kin has had to post about lately or that have repeatedly been brought up in meetings was not the norm that I remember. Frankly, the entire thing has made me roll back my commitment to the game considerably in the last few weeks.

I'm sorry you feel that way! I think we're all just trying to make our best case possible and to be heard. I recommend taking a step back from OOC engagement if these types of discussions bother you -- sometimes it's better to just focus on the immersion, imo.

[Famine]

Late to the game here. Been super casual as of lately.

Well hrrm, this kills all my characters. I always live in Whoinvis for the simple reason so many players use OOC who ICC'ly. I really don't see the reason why anyone needs to know I'm on except the staff. It does not impact the gameplay negatively in any way. If you really want to give players a way to find other players in character, then mechanics should be introduced to better track those whoinvis characters who walk openly in the city (i.e.: simulate NPC's seeing a character or their cloaks and gossipping where they are at).

Now I have to be forced into RP to gain experience to hide my character from people who will see me and actively seek me out based on OOC information.

I play here because the game is pretty open RP. It's a gridless system to me. I have freedom to do a number of things. Changes like these are extremely linear and basically the staff telling me I can only play one way. For example, I just logged on for awhile. No XP in the pool. I cannot go invis. Now I must go RP to go invis. This is the staff forcing my hand to gain more experience than a normal character who does not need whoinvis.

[Spoops]

I guess I'm struggling to see why sitting somewhere with deaf and whereRP off isn't essentially the same thing. You're pretty damn safe from OOC abuse. And in the rare instance you aren't, that's what policy cases are for.

I feel like if you're struggling because "you're being forced to RP" there's... a fundamental issue there that has nothing to do with the whoinvis system. Nearly everything in this game requires RP. There's been several 'hunted' individuals who don't use whoinvis, but are just as hard to track (without breaching policy) as anybody else.

Most people I know aren't going to risk a policy case to catch somebody. And those that do, are usually dealt with.

[Puciek]

Late to the game here. Been super casual as of lately.

Well hrrm, this kills all my characters. I always live in Whoinvis for the simple reason so many players use OOC who ICC'ly. I really don't see the reason why anyone needs to know I'm on except the staff. It does not impact the gameplay negatively in any way. If you really want to give players a way to find other players in character, then mechanics should be introduced to better track those whoinvis characters who walk openly in the city (i.e.: simulate NPC's seeing a character or their cloaks and gossipping where they are at).

Now I have to be forced into RP to gain experience to hide my character from people who will see me and actively seek me out based on OOC information.

I play here because the game is pretty open RP. It's a gridless system to me. I have freedom to do a number of things. Changes like these are extremely linear and basically the staff telling me I can only play one way. For example, I just logged on for awhile. No XP in the pool. I cannot go invis. Now I must go RP to go invis. This is the staff forcing my hand to gain more experience than a normal character who does not need whoinvis.

So this change makes you go out and RP? Seems like a good change to me! Because having to go and RP with people is a good, not bad thing, especially public RP where other people can also join in - good to meet and mingle, or meet and smash faces.

And no, the vast majority of the players do not use OOC Icly, please refrain from summarily insulting the players as a whole thank you very much. And if you know of someone who does, report them to staff. Though if your entire character premise relies on not being visible OOCly as online/offline, I would say that you may be the one with OOC/IC separation issues and should rethink why are you really using whoinvis. Do you do it because without it people will OOCly figure your IC name, or do you do it to be hard to catch in the game hm? If it's the latter, well, that's using OOC for IC gains. If it's the former - name alone gained OOCLy is useless (for most part).

[Famine]

Late to the game here. Been super casual as of lately.

Well hrrm, this kills all my characters. I always live in Whoinvis for the simple reason so many players use OOC who ICC'ly. I really don't see the reason why anyone needs to know I'm on except the staff. It does not impact the gameplay negatively in any way. If you really want to give players a way to find other players in character, then mechanics should be introduced to better track those whoinvis characters who walk openly in the city (i.e.: simulate NPC's seeing a character or their cloaks and gossipping where they are at).

Now I have to be forced into RP to gain experience to hide my character from people who will see me and actively seek me out based on OOC information.

I play here because the game is pretty open RP. It's a gridless system to me. I have freedom to do a number of things. Changes like these are extremely linear and basically the staff telling me I can only play one way. For example, I just logged on for awhile. No XP in the pool. I cannot go invis. Now I must go RP to go invis. This is the staff forcing my hand to gain more experience than a normal character who does not need whoinvis.

So this change makes you go out and RP? Seems like a good change to me! Because having to go and RP with people is a good, not bad thing, especially public RP where other people can also join in - good to meet and mingle, or meet and smash faces.

And no, the vast majority of the players do not use OOC Icly, please refrain from summarily insulting the players as a whole thank you very much. And if you know of someone who does, report them to staff. Though if your entire character premise relies on not being visible OOCly as online/offline, I would say that you may be the one with OOC/IC separation issues and should rethink why are you really using whoinvis. Do you do it because without it people will OOCly figure your IC name, or do you do it to be hard to catch in the game hm? If it's the latter, well, that's using OOC for IC gains. If it's the former - name alone gained OOCLy is useless (for most part).

I can clarify more.

This is a RP MUD and RP is generally what we are all here for including myself. However, I do believe that RP should happen naturally. Good game design to me is the staff providing me with the tools and even systems that generate story and or conflict for me to utilize with those tools to make RP happen naturally. For example, Johnny walking to a tavern to encounter Sarah where he uses a customized emote system to tell her a story about his former pirate life.

Rooms, movement, custom emotes, and much more are all systems and tools given to those two players to RP naturally. The moment you start creating systems that pre-alert Johnny that Sarah is in a tavern where she wants to talk about former or past lives before you can move X spaces, then you are unnaturally forcing the scenes. This does not mean Johnny hates RP because he declines Sarah, it just may mean he doesn't want to be forced into a scene.

I know it may seem like I'm splitting hairs here, but I do enjoy hiding behind WHOINVIS to not alert others that I am on or around. No one will ever convince me that players don't use WHO icc'ly, especially if my criminal character is wanted. I've had it happen too much in the past and trying to prove that or even forcing me into a position to use it as a reason is completely dumb. I know some of you have no problems reporting people and making excuses on X, Y, Z. But I rather be drama free and just try to RP naturally without force and without taxing the staff depending on the outcomes. Again, providing the tools to play the game and having fun.

[Helena]

To Famine: While an IC way to know that someone is on the grid would be great, we can consider that the who list is just that: some NPC spotted X somewhere recently. And if I remember correctly, even you wrote some time ago you were hoping to see more people in public streets with whererp on. And, well, if I could know your character is online, I'd be amongst those who would happily wait for you in a public street - and if I need revenge after this, I would happily hunt for you the next time.

To all: I like the idea of hiding the wholist to those who are on whoinvis. That is so simple, and seems fair. I hope this idea could be discussed by staff, even if another solution is currently implemented.