Individual Piety

[Rhothrian]

In a world where an oppressive religion is used to control nearly every facet of life, it’s a bit strange that acolytes and priests are about as rare as an honest politician. It’s not that way in other game worlds as spiritualists often perform the role of physical healers and magic users and are quite commonly found in support roles. In fact, they are essential to play. I have a few theories on why that is in The Inquisition, but to get straight to the point I feel it’s because they lack access to a viable mechanic and or purpose of their own. Being a priest is just a Rp hook to most or a steppingstone toward being an inquisitor. No one stays in the position. To rectify this, I would suggest redefining spiritual guidance, priest specific systems and individual piety so that there is tangible benefit to the player for participating in or doing religious practices in character.

I also get the impression that there was an underlying desire to show religion as being devoid of any real value beyond use as a base control mechanism for society, with no tangible benefits beyond avoiding physical and social punishment. Although use as a mass behavior tool is undeniable that isn’t much of a motivator toward certain IC behavior, such as actually attending mass or praying. Beyond the occasional lord bless being thrown into a sentence and a chalice sign made when there’s a witch sighting the average character that I’ve met seems rather secular and or going through the motions. They need more carrot on the stick. Why is there no other tangible benefit to faith in the game? I’m not talking about miracles and quasi magic with clerics casting spells like mages, but certainly a highly pious character can be given better resistances, ward themselves against certain spells, remove hexes, increase morale to the point of increasing skill execution etc. Power of suggestion can absolutely affect the mind. If magic is primarily the manipulation of the physical word then piety could manipulate the mind and spirit. Think of it as medieval psychology.

The following list is how I perceive the various roles in The Inquisition and part of the reason why we hardly ever see spiritualists other than inquisitors:

Knights: Mage hunters, pvp oriented. Check
Inquisitors: Spiritual investigators and canonical law enforcement. Check
Physicians: On average, the best healers on Urth and infinitely useful. Check
Merchants: Access to the incredibly customizable trades and essential to all types of play. Check
Mages: Magic/Rival faction to order and established society, pvp oriented. Check
Reeves: Secular law enforcement, rival faction to criminals, pvp oriented. Check.
Thieves: Crime, rival faction to Reeves, pvp oriented. check
Clergy: At best an RP hook combined with another class. Inquisitorial steppingstone.

Yes, we all know that you can pick up a second class and combine some of these to make pretty much any concept viable and fun, but on its own the priest seems the most lackluster of them all. Part of this reason is that thematically, the bulk of what they are supposed to be doing falls right off the fun meter for the average player from an ooc standpoint: preaching, counseling and confession. The only time I ever see anything approaching a sermon is a witch burning. Also, acolyte is where the choice should be made whether the spiritualist is to become a shepherd of the flock or a spiritual investigator. Otherwise the priest path is always going to be devalued.

Moving onward from the lack of spiritual benefits, not many players want to sit and listen to a player drone on for several minutes giving a sermon without being able to offer their own input strings. The same reason why you don’t hear actual songs with lyrics from troubadours: they simply RP background music and describe the techniques being used. Also, not many players will seek confession for obvious OOC and IC reasons. Risk vs. reward just isn’t there. Therefore, I suggest the following:

Atheism – For those who wish to fake the funk and not be affected by Wellbeing or Piety you can opt out by either selecting Atheism for your religion in chargen or declaring it at a later stage in your character’s career. Selecting this option will make you exempt from dealing with wellbeing and you will not receive any of the other benefits from religion. However, once you become an atheist it will require confession and an appropriate penance to return to the fold.

Piety (PRXP) – Just like RPXP you would be awarded ticks of experience throughout your roleplay if certain parameters are met. Mages or those with the taint of magic cannot participate in the piety system. For example:

Wellbeing – Whereas piety is the measure of a character’s dedication to the Lord of The Springs or whatever deity is worshipped, Wellbeing is a measure of the characters spirit or general mental state and the total is determined by the wisdom score. Low amounts of wellbeing will begin to lessen the total number of MV and Health that the character possesses up to a total loss of 40% from the maximum normally allowed at its lowest point. Prayer, blessings and listening to sermons are best ways to replenish this mental pool.

Cemote – like hemote or emote but a bonus experience all IC day to PRPXP for making the sign of the chalice during rp.

Prayer – Making any of the 5 prayers within a chapel or cathedral will provide an PRPXP bonus all IC day. Only one type of prayer affect can be active at a time. Successive prayers would cancel out the previous affect.

Confession – Bestow Penance would be an order guild skill and given by the priest upon hearing a viable confession. Once the priest is satisfied that the penance has been carried out the character may return for a blessing. This would optimally mean that the priest accompanies the character in question and will actually observe the penance being carried out to ensure that it has been met adequately, not simply giving a list of things to do and having them return a few minutes later. It would also be an all IC day bonus to PRXP and heal the Wellbeing score.

Create more skills for the religion skillset: These skills would be fed by the PRXP pool and raised through use in a similar manner as other skills. For example, consider the following religion skills:

Fellowship: – + luck bonus + per every 5 ranks. Similar to a hemote in regard to bonus PRXP. The fellowship skill would be checked each time a skill is used in the presence of another Davite. The luck bonus would also be that of the person with the highest fellowship for all other Davites in the room. When the skill successfully ticks the affected players will receive a feedback message saying something like, “Your spirit feels bolstered by the presence of other Davites.”

Chalisment: – + magic resistance bonus + per every 5 ranks. The skill roll is checked via the, “Chalice” verb before the emote string and can only be used once per in character hour.

Prayer – Increased levels in this skill increase the PRXP bonus received for having prayed and may be conducted once every four IC hours. It would use the existing prayer command and provide the following benefits:

Bereavement – + Wis bonus + per every 5 ranks of prayer skill.
Confession – + luck bonus + per every 5 ranks to penance award.
Dav’s Words – + Wellbeing bonus + per every 5 of prayer skill.
Dav’s Laws - + PRXP bonus + per every 5 of prayer skill.
Prayer of Warding- + magic resistance bonus + per every 5 ranks of prayer skill.

Create More class skills in the religion skill set for order fed with PRXP. For Example:

Divine Presence - + charisma bonus + per every 5. The skill is checked and pools during teaching and preaching sessions and will advance in an identical fashion as teaching.

Bestow Penance – A special blessing that can only be given by the priest who has received the confession of another player. Once given by the priest it would bestow an all-day bonus to PRXP.

Blessing - Will heal + wellbeing + per every 5 ranks in the skill. Only one blessing per IC day can be in affect so attempting to bestow multiple blessings to fill a Wellbeing pool will not be possible.

Sermon – This skill reflects the characters ability to speak on religious and moral subjects based on passages from the Erra Patter. It would be toggled on and off with the sermon command. While active not only do listeners receive feedback on the skill of the speaker but a bonus to PRXP as well as slowly filling the Wellbeing score. Each tick of the sermon will fill the depleted wellbeing of the listener based on + Wellbeing + per every 5 ranks. Furthermore, the speed in which Wellbeing starts depleting again is decreased also based on the skill of the speaker and may last multiple days.

Alternate Sermon Idea:

What if sermon functioned in a similar manner as a rumor for the priest. They could select a theme based on some current event or whatever Erra Patter tie in they wished to speak on that day and people could interact as they wished to. The difference is that real names of the speaker as well as people who respond are released to the public and would bestow a onetime award to piety for participation as well as counting toward the influence total for that week for the speaking priest. This would simulate the priest and congregation sitting in the same space IC without forcing someone to sit through an actual event. In addition to the influence and piety awards the sermon could even act as a vote toward an appropriate city metric to the theme, flushed out during the construction of the sermon as a free vote. Now you have a situation where the powers that be will start seeking out members of the clergy for support, which opens up opportunities for other RP avenues.

“Fund our southside food drive and we will see about talking to the merchant’s guild to lower the taxes on certain imported goods.”

“Support our community outreach and education program to improve race relations and we will see if we can summon up funds for your city infrastructure plan."

[Niamh]

Interesting! I dropped a link to this thread onto the Staff board.

[Tasker]

I would really enjoy seeing something like this, as for as long as I've been on TI the whole religion aspect (which is one of the main themes of TI, or THE main theme) is very underplayed. It's often difficult to do, because unless everyone is on the same page and fully participating in it - anyone who really goes above and beyond playing up the Davite religion is seen as a bit cooky. At least in my experience, and I often find it hard to keep on the line of piety for this reason.

A system like this will more than encourage people playing up the religious aspects, but careful consideration must be given to tangible benefits for playing up the piety - but not overly punish those who do not, it'll have to be trialed to see how it works out and will probably need constant tweaking if something like this were to be put in place, but I would very much like to see something along these lines.

[Puciek]

Couple things to note:

- There used to be coded piety years ago which, when high, provided some level of protection from magical attacks. It was removed because everyone was simply keeping it at high without any actual boost to Order rp.
- Mages can also be davites. Just because we call them as heretics, doesn't mean that this is the case, quite the opposite actually as many of them are strong believers in Lord of the springs. So they absolutely should participate in the proposed piety system, just like they did participate in the old one.
- Followers of other religions should also get this sort of bonuses if they can meet the same requirements but respectable to their faith. Maybe with tuned down numbers of people required, and obviously different commands, but this certainly would encourage for the heretics to organise.
- Atheism I don't think should belong, as that would be unthematic. We live in a world where we have Orkin woods, the sultanate and regular mages activity and never ending Order indoctrination; how can someone not believe in a higher being? You could be sceptical about the church, but I am no so sure on atheism.

[Rhothrian]

- Atheism I don't think should belong, as that would be unthematic. We live in a world where we have Orkin woods, the sultanate and regular mages activity and never ending Order indoctrination; how can someone not believe in a higher being? You could be sceptical about the church, but I am no so sure on atheism.

We have rebel personality types both OOC and IC that will not wish to see any changes to the current system because OOC it will be seen as something that they can't directly benefit from and will be a bother to maintain, or IC they are naysayers that realize there are mages and demons but feel that the church is full of lies and there are better ways of dealing with them. Atheism could probably be considered its own form of faith. They simply look towards something else besides a deity or even themselves to provide hope for the future, mental focus and motivation as they move thru life. I would agree otherwise with the points you made.

Because of the nature of the game there should also be a shift in what people are doing during a sermon. It should be more like a town hall meeting where the priest opens with a theme based on Erra Patter relevant topics and invites questions, leading the conversation as a college professor would do during a question and answer period regarding assigned reading. Often this theme is made more interesting because it is tied to a current event where the speaker can match Erra Patter scripture and use it as a teachable moment. That way you aren’t just a passive listener for several minutes to an hour. With the bonus of healing and prolonging your Wellbeing score, increasing PRXP gain and being able to interact I think sermons/mass would be a thing most look forward to participating in.

Confession – Bestow Penance would be an order guild skill and given by the priest upon hearing a viable confession. Once the priest is satisfied that the penance has been carried out the character may return for a blessing. This would optimally mean that the priest accompanies the character in question and will actually observe the penance being carried out to ensure that it has been met adequately, not simply giving a list of things to do and having them return a few minutes later. It would also be an all IC day bonus to PRXP and heal the Wellbeing score.

I would imagine the priest would either receive quite a bit of mail to arrange meetings for confession, hit up on the street in passing or may even allot time occupy a confessional booth in the Cathedral.

[Voxumo]

All I have to say on this is much like Puciek said, there used to be a coded piety, but it was removed because everyone used it but never rped it. Alot of these suggested commands, quite frankly too many in my opinion, go the same route.Type in the command and get a bonus to rpxp, no reason to actually rp about it or that you are doing it.

I mean don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the Faith of the game buffed up, but also made more questionable. Part of the games "Tag line" labels the church as maybe not so pure, yet whenever a mage or anyone really tries to paint the order in a negative picture, it's dismissed. Even order people who take a more strong-handed approach of the order are shut down quickly.

In my opinion, before we start giving the order all these funderful commands and skills, we need to ensure they have the power to make use of them. The order is not the powerhouse/authority it should be. To question the order, or deny the order should be a near-death risk. The order should frankly be on par with the Nobility, even the lowliest of priests should have near the level of authority a noble does, as the Monarchy and Church are meant to be the two most powerful factions if lore/theme is to be believed.
If we fixed theme, or made it far more stricter, I think the order may become more popular.

[Snefru]

- Followers of other religions should also get this sort of bonuses if they can meet the same requirements but respectable to their faith. Maybe with tuned down numbers of people required, and obviously different commands, but this certainly would encourage for the heretics to organise.

And this! This would be good! Very good! I would support almost anything that would get non-church of dav religion going.

[Puciek]

- Atheism I don't think should belong, as that would be unthematic. We live in a world where we have Orkin woods, the sultanate and regular mages activity and never ending Order indoctrination; how can someone not believe in a higher being? You could be sceptical about the church, but I am no so sure on atheism.

We have rebel personality types both OOC and IC that will not wish to see any changes to the current system because OOC it will be seen as something that they can't directly benefit from and will be a bother to maintain, or IC they are naysayers that realize there are mages and demons but feel that the church is full of lies and there are better ways of dealing with them. Atheism could probably be considered its own form of faith. They simply look towards something else besides a deity or even themselves to provide hope for the future, mental focus and motivation as they move thru life. I would agree otherwise with the points you made.

Atheism is not a faith - it's the opposite of it, where an individual simply lacks the faith to believe that a deity exists. And given the theme, I just don't see how ICly someone could arrive at that idea, not to mention live for more than few years without Order "restoring" that faith in them with fire and strappado very quickly. Keep in mind that this isn't a society like we have now, living in an information age, but a truly dark era, where, by theme, if you say that Order is wrong, or even hint it, you may likely end in the torture room.

What you are describing is more of simply defiance of the Church, or Davism but not lack of faith. So maybe have a look at some of the other religions? Check out: help cultists, help path of fire, help cyclists, help spirits. I think the spirits of light may be one closest to what you have in mind.

Because of the nature of the game there should also be a shift in what people are doing during a sermon. It should be more like a town hall meeting where the priest opens with a theme based on Erra Patter relevant topics and invites questions, leading the conversation as a college professor would do during a question and answer period regarding assigned reading. Often this theme is made more interesting because it is tied to a current event where the speaker can match Erra Patter scripture and use it as a teachable moment. That way you aren’t just a passive listener for several minutes to an hour. With the bonus of healing and prolonging your Wellbeing score, increasing PRXP gain and being able to interact I think sermons/mass would be a thing most look forward to participating in.

Interactive sermons were tried too, really tried, but they all get very boring very fast. Primarily because people do know the theme, and for the most part can resolve their own problems - without the need of an external person to help guide them through it with stories. The idea of the priest is a spiritual leader, a helpful ear but that only works if the player behind the priest can come with actual helpful advice. Otherwise, it's down to rehashing same old stories from help religion. And that gets boring very fast.

[Rhothrian]

All I have to say on this is much like Puciek said, there used to be a coded piety, but it was removed because everyone used it but never rped it. Alot of these suggested commands, quite frankly too many in my opinion, go the same route.Type in the command and get a bonus to rpxp, no reason to actually rp about it or that you are doing it.

There is one command suggested that doesn't require you to be in the presence of someone else to have it give you any benefit and that's the prayer command. Even then you still need to be in an actual place of worship to use it properly. Add on a slowly ticking replenishment to Wellbeing and now you have people congregating in places of worship to pray out loud or even see each other in passing. Correct me if I'm wrong but the old piety system was removed because people were grinding it behind closed doors and receiving high levels of it without any interaction. What I suggested is the opposite of that. Furthermore, it doesn't take away from the fact that priests need a viable mechanic of their own to have more of a function than an RP hook. The complete absence of player clergy characters should be proof of that.

[Puciek]

All I have to say on this is much like Puciek said, there used to be a coded piety, but it was removed because everyone used it but never rped it. Alot of these suggested commands, quite frankly too many in my opinion, go the same route.Type in the command and get a bonus to rpxp, no reason to actually rp about it or that you are doing it.

There is one command suggested that doesn't require you to be in the presence of someone else to have it give you any benefit and that's the prayer command. Even then you still need to be in an actual place of worship to use it properly. Add on a slowly ticking replenishment to Wellbeing and now you have people congregating in places of worship to pray out loud or even see each other in passing. Correct me if I'm wrong but the old piety system was removed because people were grinding it behind closed doors and receiving high levels of it without any interaction. What I suggested is the opposite of that. Furthermore, it doesn't take away from the fact that priests need a viable mechanic of their own to have more of a function than an RP hook. The complete absence of player clergy characters should be proof of that.

That's a bit of simplification of the old piety system. While it was removed for that reason, the reason why people grinded it out was that how many times can you gather and pray together before it no longer provides any RP value but is just a chore that keeps you away from actual rp?

That's the problem with most upkeep coded systems - they require meticulous balance to not simply create another chore which you do for the sake of the coded benefit, not because it creates RP. And I don't think that those changes would help, because once you take the code away - you only have RP hooks left, the same RP hooks that most people are not interested in playing out right now. I absolutely agree that priests must exist, but I don't think that forcing people to interact with them is a good solution. One alternative could be to rethink the role of priests as guides, but that requires PCs to actually need help in making decisions from other PCs.
Very much like is/was the role of priests IRL, where they lead masses and shared cautionary tales that people could actually relate to (sorry to say but rehashing help religion doesn't do it), and then gave out individual advice, a practical one, but wrapped in form of faith often enough.

But that's a much bigger change, requiring work and will on both sides, and sad reality may be that we don't have priests because players don't want priests. And until the role of a priest in the world is something people want to interact with, without code forcing them, I don't think this will change.