Removal of Support/Subvert for the Tenebrae

[Niamh]

COME ON DOWN TO THE PITCHFORK EMPORIUM!

Rofl. Of COURSE that's a thing. And you're welcome! I'm hoping with the volume so greatly trimmed back we'll be able to cycle through them in a more timely manner. Looking a list of 10 pages is daunting. One page is much better. ...Also no more 8 hour Staff meetings now that the first big rush to review them is over. Wheee!

[Starstarfish]

Could we maybe combine the two topics threads on this?

[Starstarfish]

But no, I'll remember the suggestion that only those at Entrenched are allowed to talk about the ridiculous support system, because clearly anyone else has ulterior motives.

If a concern is the support system in general, that should be part of a bigger discussion.

It also stems from my time as Misune, where I was ousted by my entire guild, though not a single person had the audacity to bring the concerns they raised to my attention icly, and instead I was swept away in a sudden wave of accusations I hadn't even been aware of until the ousting. Easier to oocly subvert than to confront icly.

I'd also add using undue policy complaints and doxxing people to the imms in this as well. I have said my concerns about this sort of thing for nearly a year. Me being who I play, that concern never seems to gain real traction on my own behalf. Which so be it, but this is a problem not just for the Tenebrae but GLs or the game atmosphere in general. Wherein people use code and/or OOC means too easily without addressing things ICly via RP. It keeps happening. It happens on the forums, the channels, the meetings in small and big ways. We need to fix this and not just for the Tenebrae. I keep bringing it up, I don't know what else to do.

Thirdly: When was the last time we had a "Bad" Tenebrae, or really an active brotherhood in general?

Our numbers have increased 200% compared to what they were at less than a year ago.

Which one of these is true? (Don't really answer this, rhetorical question.) But ... you can't tell people things are great and membership is up and argue the guild isn't active.

When was the last time we had really active Reeves, Order, or anything? We are a smaller playerbase than happened in the historical past.

A brotherhood who just didn't hide in their hidey hole?

So change that? If a Guild you are in charge of isn't doing things, change things? When's the last time we had a Tenebrae willing to just tell people they were Tenebrae and felt confident enough not to go full cloak and dagger? That's a lie somewhere about outcome and input. If the lack of non-hidden RP is driven by OOC fear of being caught/killed/ousted, maybe one needs to choose if they are willing to do things anyways. But again, this seems a drive to offer an OOC solution to problem of OOC fear. I can guarantee every GL has the same fear. At least two others GLs also have RP that could potentially lead to killing people.

[Voxumo]

Thirdly: When was the last time we had a "Bad" Tenebrae, or really an active brotherhood in general?

Our numbers have increased 200% compared to what they were at less than a year ago.

Which one of these is true? (Don't really answer this, rhetorical question.) But ... you can't tell people things are great and membership is up and argue the guild isn't active.

When was the last time we had really active Reeves, Order, or anything? We are a smaller playerbase than happened in the historical past.

A brotherhood who just didn't hide in their hidey hole?

So change that? If a Guild you are in charge of isn't doing things, change things? When's the last time we had a Tenebrae willing to just tell people they were Tenebrae and felt confident enough not to go full cloak and dagger? That's a lie somewhere about outcome and input. If the lack of non-hidden RP is driven by OOC fear of being caught/killed/ousted, maybe one needs to choose if they are willing to do things anyways. But again, this seems a drive to offer an OOC solution to problem of OOC fear. I can guarantee every GL has the same fear. At least two others GLs also have RP that could potentially lead to killing people.

You misunderstand my response. When was the last time, is referring to before I took over, as it was in direct response to people pointing out the last times we had Better tenebri, who seemingly had no troubles. I then pointed out how long it has been and the possibility that the gambit system may not even have been implemented yet, nor the public guildleaders approval. My memory is fuzzy but both are a relatively new, in reference to the lifespan of the game, additions.

In no way was I referring to the present Brotherhood. The current brotherhood and its members are consistently active.

Though to be fair, I can understand the confusion, as I've been informed frequently lately that some folks have assumed it's not been the same tenebrae... yet it very much has.

[Starstarfish]

In my recollection, we have had within my playtime Tenebrae who were Gambited, but ... I think they were Activity related.

As for who was the last one who was "Bad" - we did have someone stabbed in broad daylight at the First Bank within memory. But personally, I think the issue is what people want the Tenebrae position to be, and for some while it's felt a bit more Enjolras from Les Miserables than you know ... the Peaker Blinders. Which is fine, but it might be a having it both ways kind of thing.

[Niamh]

Could we maybe combine the two topics threads on this?

Sure. Done.

[Taunya]

And, thinking about the idea further, I like the idea of making it where only Thieves / Freeman can initiate or vote on a gambit of the Tenebrae. That way, the nobles and Reeves could, in theory influence a gambit like that, but they'd be entirely reliant on garnering support of the lower classes. While what the nobles and reeves think of the Tenebrae should matter somewhat, it shouldn't matter to the extent that their opinions trump those who matter for the Brotherhood.

I also like the idea of only allowing thieves/freemen to initiate a gambit or vote on gambits for thieves GLs. It would give the lower classes their time to shine every now and then. An alternative on the voting could be to allow voting for all but invert it a bit: thief votes are worth the standard 3 points, freemen votes 2 points, GL/Nobles 1 point. Personally I like the idea of freemen/thief only though.

[Buzz K[ir]ill]

I think it worth pointing out, since this idea of a Freemen/Brotherhood "vote" keeps coming up, that thematically, most Freemen would not be in support of the Brotherhood or lawlessness, and that being a Freeman simply means having less money than gentry. It does not mean that you necessarily live in Southside or that you're necessarily poverty-sticken and desperate or that you benefit from the Brotherhood's presence. Only the poorest of the poor live in Southside -- those unfortunate souls whose families and fortunes were wiped out by the flood. And of course, those shady individuals who have decided to take up there in order live more "freely" than the law would like.