Tax info and metagaming concerns

[Gerolf]

Since this seems to be something people want to see, here is a redacted output from levy:

Code: Select all

Name                Rank      Owed     Rate
==============================================
Bob               19         0   220/month      Phome + Shop tax.
John             19         0    30/month      Phome tax.
Sarah               19         0   120/month      Phome + pshop tax.

Don't ask me what rank is, I have no clue.

So I am on my phone so I am going to be brief but: Everybody take a chill pill.

One thing you are all missing is that this information is available IC today, ergo it is perfectly reasonable for a reeve to look at the tax records and come to the conclusion that something is fishy if the records are saying owner pays 500 but the home at the address is a one room W&D outfit.

Second, if we do serve a warrant (Which, by the way the order searches more property than the reeves) then we tend to take 3 people or so and we all search every room. If nothing is found, we move on and write moods are writen etc.

Third: Not paying taxes on hidden rooms is a bad idea. Here is why: I make my phome accessible via portal. Now the whole thing is hidden. Now it can be as big as I like with no tax at all? I don't like that idea.

At the end of it though, I think a bigger discussion on what is considered meta gaming is might be warranted because I think we have a lot of different opinions flying around it is putting people on edge. Right now, I firmly believe that the current Reeves and Knights are doing everything they can to be realistic in their expectations.

(Foot note: your scenario wouldn't happen that way. Reeves don't need no stinking keys!)

[Andruid]

Thanks, Gerolf! That helps a lot more than speculation. I assume more information is available via RPA, which is where the type of phome comes in, general location, etc. Due to the staffer's phrasing, I was under the impression that the type of home was part of the output, but clearly it's not, which makes it much less likely for someone to see the two together and start getting ideas. :)

I think having a 500 silver tax on a supposedly one-room home would be fishy even under IC circumstances, but my concern was regarding more realistic circumstances, in which a player might have 3-4 rooms accessible by portal on a 10-room property, and whether using tax information should be legit/IC or might constitute something metagamey. I'm far less concerned about information that has to come through staff, such as RPA.

I also have no idea what rank is...

Finally, I don't have strong opinions on whether hidden rooms should be taxed in the first place. I think things need to stay simple and standardized to keep the burden low on staff, and taxes represent a decent solution for accounting for the costs of things.

[Andruid]

By the way, if a staffer or someone with moderator privileges wants to move this topic into General Discussion, that's fine by me.

[Geras]

One thing you are all missing is that this information is available IC today, ergo it is perfectly reasonable for a reeve to look at the tax records and come to the conclusion that something is fishy if the records are saying owner pays 500 but the home at the address is a one room W&D outfit.

This is exactly the problem though. Why should policy/code be forcing someone to pay that 500 silver a month? And on what basis should the Reeves know something is fishy?

If people don't disclose their rooms to the tax collector and its not readily apparent to said collector that these rooms exist, I don't see why any tax should be paid on them and why the Reeves should have any information on them.

[Voxumo]

One thing you are all missing is that this information is available IC today, ergo it is perfectly reasonable for a reeve to look at the tax records and come to the conclusion that something is fishy if the records are saying owner pays 500 but the home at the address is a one room W&D outfit.

This is exactly the problem though. Why should policy/code be forcing someone to pay that 500 silver a month? And on what basis should the Reeves know something is fishy?

If people don't disclose their rooms to the tax collector and its not readily apparent to said collector that these rooms exist, I don't see why any tax should be paid on them and why the Reeves should have any information on them.

Because someone had to build them in the first place... It's not like your character just so happens to be skilled in masonry and can build their own rooms. See my explanation above, because I had the exact same question sometime ago, but instead of discussing it with fellow players who don't know the actual answer either, I went to staff who would have some answer.

[Noobus]

I once discussed it with a staffer as well and while someone did in fact have to build the room(s), I was told that they are supposed to be 'off the books'. If people think that there should be no tax for hidden rooms, Z's idea of paying a lot of money up front will work (have the builder keep their mouth Shut? employ a shady stonemason?) or we could keep it as it is, either way... It works for me since this is the system that has worked for countless other before me.

tldr: I have nothing intelligent to Add! XD

[Applesauce]

Clearly non-taxable hidden rooms would be abusable, as people have mentioned. But maybe it's possible to split "tax" into "to the Reeves" and "to the Imms".

So if you have a 10 room house and 3 rooms are hidden, 7 rooms' worth shows up on the Reeve side of levy, but only the imms see the other 3 (or full 10, or whatever way it would make sense and be helpful). Similarly, 100% of the thief guildhall taxes would be "to the Imms" in the IC form of bribery to keep the location and other details quiet.

From the POV of the person paying, you still pay the exact same amount and the exact same way as before. You wouldn't have to pay twice or separately, but this would let taxes be split into public/private from a purely record keeping standpoint.

[Kinaed]

We will continue to tax hidden rooms because it's easier math for builders, acts as a natural size regulator to homes so they feel like homes and not personal 'mud zones', and it is a pertinent money sink in the economy.

ICly, if explanation is required - as a homeowner who built actually built a home IRL, to be able to build a house, you need to register the plans and get approvals to do so within certain types of areas. City limits is a perfect type of place that would require plans, and there are medieval archives with "blueprints" for everything from houses to churches, so this is not out of the ordinary. That said, paper-based systems back in those days would be a huge manual mess, and the Reeves just don't have access to home blueprints. The way it works IRL today is that you buy land, build a house, the local government sets a value on that 'capital improved land' based on what you built it on, and those are your land taxes. They don't keep track of what is there, they increment it by CPI or something to determine how much you'll pay 10 years from now.

Also, there is upkeep if you'd prefer to see it as upkeep rather than a tax man or hush money payout. I just had my water heater go out a couple of weeks ago, for example. I a'm certain there were activities like replacing termite infested wood or unclogging the hearth's chimney that had to be done to upkeep your property back then.

[Geras]

One thing you are all missing is that this information is available IC today, ergo it is perfectly reasonable for a reeve to look at the tax records and come to the conclusion that something is fishy if the records are saying owner pays 500 but the home at the address is a one room W&D outfit.

This is exactly the problem though. Why should policy/code be forcing someone to pay that 500 silver a month? And on what basis should the Reeves know something is fishy?

If people don't disclose their rooms to the tax collector and its not readily apparent to said collector that these rooms exist, I don't see why any tax should be paid on them and why the Reeves should have any information on them.

Because someone had to build them in the first place... It's not like your character just so happens to be skilled in masonry and can build their own rooms. See my explanation above, because I had the exact same question sometime ago, but instead of discussing it with fellow players who don't know the actual answer either, I went to staff who would have some answer.

If the toon was in game champion for earth magic and a skilled tradesperson?

[Voxumo]

This is exactly the problem though. Why should policy/code be forcing someone to pay that 500 silver a month? And on what basis should the Reeves know something is fishy?

If people don't disclose their rooms to the tax collector and its not readily apparent to said collector that these rooms exist, I don't see why any tax should be paid on them and why the Reeves should have any information on them.

Because someone had to build them in the first place... It's not like your character just so happens to be skilled in masonry and can build their own rooms. See my explanation above, because I had the exact same question sometime ago, but instead of discussing it with fellow players who don't know the actual answer either, I went to staff who would have some answer.

If the toon was in game champion for earth magic and a skilled tradesperson?

*Narrows eyes* Until the Masonry skill is an ingame thing, the point is kind of mute.