Tax info and metagaming concerns

[Klapman]

One of the nice things about playing MUDs is that generally, only the people who are interested in having a fun time tend to get into them. The barrier to entry is so high that you can have a generous measure of trust in the players, and the expectation that they'll allow their characters to be beaten so long as it's a good time for all. I could maybe see this happening if a perfect storm occurred - a new player inducted into the Reeves after some time spent waiting, who really wants to get on a case though few Reeves are around to show them the ropes, who then decides to pore through tax records and acts on their own to go after them.

And even then, it could very easily be handled ICly as "Sorry haha we need to keep a tighter rein on our recruits, sorry for the trouble <X Homeowner>." It would easily be within the realm of possibility to turn it into a roleplaying experience in itself. Even in this theoretical situation, several interesting things happen - the Reeves have to deal with someone very dedicated to their job, which is an OOC indication that the new player really, REALLY wants to roleplay a Reeve and so now they can be even more of an OOC priority, probably get on the fast track to promotion so they can make more fun RP.

That, and if the homeowner really IS sketchy, they've gotten their first smack on the wrist out of sheer chance. This is a good starting off point for them to make a mistake, or reach out to someone for security, whether they're Brotherhood or Mages. Maybe they're Brotherhood and so the Brotherhood takes steps to make sure the homeowner's safe, that gives the Brotherhood something good to do. Or if it's a Mage, it could be the impetus that sends a Mage looking for actual assistance from their compatriots, which leads to a bunch of inter-Mage stuff which could lead to some very big things down the road.

At the end of the day, I find that most OOC problems like this tend to be started by people who are simply new to the game, and can often be turned into a great introduction for said player. You make them feel part of something right away, and so long as you stress the fact that that sort of thing is deadly to RP in larger doses, they'll usually just be glad for the attention.

This turned into a long post. Basically all I'm saying is that sometimes OOC mistakes can lead to fun IC things so long as you're careful about it, and don't tolerate it in people that should know better. Most times people who make these mistakes are new, and just need to be introduced to the more interesting way of doing things.

[Pixie]

I'm fairly sure the levy output isn't specific enough to tell you the level of lock security per door, type of material used, number of doors, number of locks, garden, hot house, cold room, farm, and/or tons of other flags, etc. that would be needed to actually use this method with any amount of success. There are so many things that could affect the amount in taxes a homeowner pays that it would be pretty much impossible to see a lump sum and go "AH HAH! HIDDEN ROOOOMS!".

That said, it's super weird that hidden rooms are taxed, but that's a separate conversation.

[BattleJenkins]

Echoing Pixie's statement that it's weird that hidden rooms are taxed and they probably shouldn't be, but that being able to see a phome's total cost isn't a terribly useful indicator that they're hiding something - plus, considering how all PvP activity needs to be logged in cnotes, staff would likely come down on using OOC information this way, since the motivation to search a player's home based on their taxes would need to be logged in order to be considered valid.

Generally speaking, this game prioritizes cooperative storytelling over PvP, and people often tend to let things slide even if presented with OOCly damning evidence - please don't worry too much about people leveraging unfair advantages, even where they do exist! It doesn't happen so often here as it does other places.

[Pixie]

Right, RE: taxing hidden rooms. It's also super weird that homes in Southside are taxed. Or that the Brotherhood pays taxes on their guildhall. I'd like to see a Reeve mosey on down to Southside to try and count the rooms on somebody's newly-erected shanty for tax purposes, let alone tell the clearly Brotherhood-operated Southside bank that they're not to let residents take out any cash until they've paid their taxes. >_>

I'M REROUTING THE TOPIC AGAIN AHHH

Edit: This was my 200th post.

[Andruid]

To my knowledge, the Reeves only have access to unpaid or monthly taxes, not the total cost of the phome, which would greatly alter my argument. Monthly taxes have a very predictable relationship to the number of rooms in a home.

The staff member I was in communication with at the time informed me that Reeves would be able to see the amount of taxes for my X-room <type> home and that such an amount was quite common.

I don't expect every player, new or old, to necessarily understand what constitutes metagaming or be able to recognize it when they're doing it, but I do like all the positive vibes in favor of the player base. I generally agree with those remarks, but as someone who keeps a ton of incriminating stuff behind secret exits and portals (which makes up almost half of my phome), I still think it's a valid concern.

As I suggested in my original post, I'm also open to seeing the connection as a valid IC one, if there's a good case to be made in favor. So far all I'm hearing is mixed opinions on what kind of information is actually available to Reeves and arguments that people always play fair.

[Geras]

I'm fairly sure the levy output isn't specific enough to tell you the level of lock security per door, type of material used, number of doors, number of locks, garden, hot house, cold room, farm, and/or tons of other flags, etc. that would be needed to actually use this method with any amount of success. There are so many things that could affect the amount in taxes a homeowner pays that it would be pretty much impossible to see a lump sum and go "AH HAH! HIDDEN ROOOOMS!".

There are toons and players this smart and devious IMHO.

I think the point re: the Southside is an interesting one. I think it would be nice to see the Southside paying some taxes to the Brotherhood potentially, and maybe having the Crown (via the Reeves) and Brotherhood competing for each other's taxes based on a lawful metric.

[Andruid]

Here's a scenario to clarify my concerns. Maybe someone who plays a Reeve could tell me if its even possible, however "unlikely" (because I think it's wise to at least be aware of the possibilities):

A character is arrested for X reason, their keys are confiscated and the Reeves decide to look through the home for evidence pertaining to the case, having used the levy system to look up the records. They find the home, look around, and only find 4 rooms, when the taxes indicate a 10 room wooden home (150 silver, or some such). Clearly, there must be more. They continue searching, either assuming the connection is an IC one or not giving any thought to metagaming since tax info is ICly available. They find one additional room but not the others and so send for help and start testing keywords in search of portals, leading to more rooms being discovered. They eventually find the evidence they were looking for, based on what they know about how phomes are taxed.

[Zeita]

I've not seen the Reeve output but am generally inclined to trust other players (and also don't tend to own houses as a rule, so have little skin in this particular game). I believe it is general Reeve policy to search every 'suspicious' house thoroughly regardless of taxes, etc. We can only moderate the behaviour of a given player to a certain degree, and I am confident with the checks and balances that we currently have in place to deter the sort of theoretical behaviour described above.

To touch on the hidden room taxation thing, could we simply remove hidden rooms from the taxation and charge a much higher upfront fee (say 20-30 IC years worth of taxes in additional to the standard cost)? I agree that it doesn't make sense for them to be included in taxes, so front-loading the cost would be better.

[Voxumo]

Regarding the Hidden Rooms being taxed, and the brotherhood guildhall being taxed. I brought this up awhile ago to staff and I remember the answer I received was something along this line... Someone had to build it. It's not like your character built their entire home. Even your secret rooms someone built, though you may have done the mechanism to hide it. So it makes sense for it to be taxed, even if it isn't actually taxes but 'hush' money. Also Taxes are meant to include the general upkeep, in the situation of the Brotherhood's GuildHall. They pay taxes as an upkeep, as afterall if you don't keep up with your building, it will eventually dilapidate.

And as for the Metagaming... Again Andruid, you seem to be the only person concerned about this as of this moment. You can present all these hypothetical situations, but yet again if action was taken against everything that "Could" happen this game would be alot stricter and probably no where near as fun.

[Andruid]

I know for a fact I'm not the only one concerned or who has had this idea, but it's not my place to speak up for others. All I can do is present an argument and see what happens. :)

I'm not going to feel bullied by the "you're the only one who has a problem" argument, either. I'd much rather be conscientious about metagaming and the possibilities -- and have a thoughtful discussion about them -- than not.

I think I'd probably feel more comfortable with the way levy info/taxes currently work (assuming I do, in fact, understand how they currently work) if portals were lumped in with the secrets code and had to be 'found' before they can be located with keywords. That way, they'd be under the same once-per-week rule that hidden exits are under. But that's a topic already being discussed under another thread.