ti-legacy.com

Temi muses, "Alright, our agenda for today is 1) staff topics, 2)  player heartbeat, and 3) player topics.  Does anyone have any topics to get onto the list?"

Anonymous claims, "I do, yes."

Yinadele claims, "I do."

Valkyrie states, "I have a topic, a suggestion for crafts."

Temi muses, "Okay, got Anonymous, Yinadele, Valkyrie.. anyone else?"

Civetta claims, "I had a topic."

Temi nods at Civetta.

Errisar states, "Me too."

Temi nods at Errisar.

Satoshi says, "I have opinions but I believe it's already a topic"

Temi claims, "Okay.  If anyone else comes up with anything, please feel free to send a tell and we'll get you on the list.  Please pre-prepare your items to be ready when we get to you"

Temi has transferred Puck.  [OOC]

Temi gives a pumpkin-carving knife with a jagged-tooth, serrated blade to Puck.

Deedee nods.

Temi asks of Kinaed, "Spam the pact at us?"

Kinaed claims, "A reminder of the OOC Chat Pact: Regardless of what we discuss, we understand and truly believe that everyone on TI does the best they can, given what they know at the time, their skills and abilities, the resources available, and the situation at hand. We will be respectful of this and each other at all times."

Temi wonders, "And starting up staff updates, do you have anything for us?"

Temi says, "We may have lost her again.  For myself, I tried to keep up with plots and requests, and helped cause a schism in the church, so that was fun.  Trying to get through the remaining plots, and trying to stay on top of recommends and such."

Temi claims, "I know Niamh's done a fair amount of building requests."

Valkyrie exclaims, "Thanks for the hard work!"

Temi states, "I don't see any big updates for Az or code-wise.  Jobs has replaced/expanded the blackmarket."

Satoshi states, "I really REALLY like the change to jobs"

Satoshi says, "And I hope that the playerbase begins looking at/using them a lot more now that they're 'above the board'"

Wight states, "The Job system is a big improvement"

Temi states, "There's some additional stuff approved for them as well, and I know Niamh added some more locations for them"

Condensation says, "I'll definitely try to, yeah, Satosh."

Puck claims, "There's a thread on the forums for collecting feedback on it."

Puck claims, "Excited to see it used more, too. \o/"

Temi nods.

Temi claims, "Okay.  I don't see anything else on the list immediately, so we'll go ahead and move on."

Temi muses, "Player Heartbeat!  How's RP been this week, folks?"

Monky states, "Pretty good."

Phoenixdoll says, "It's been a blast."

NotNaomi exclaims, "Very busy!"

Satoshi declares, "I've been trying to ease back into RP after work's explodded, it's been nice!"

Murrmurs exclaims, "Making trouble!"

KingDeeDeeDee trails off, "Hectic! So many scenes and so little time..."

Chipotle states, "I learned my mechanical limit for shots of vodka in one sitting. I think that speaks for itself."

Satoshi says, "I'm looking forward to the party today I think"

Yinadele claims, "VERY busy with things to do."

Temi grins at Chipotle.

Valkyrie claims, "The RP I had was great, just disappointed at how the majority of the time people are in private and/or messages turned off or not replied to leaving me idling until I can find someone to roleplay with."

Deedee states, "Been a bit distracted with RL matters unfortunately, but been trying to be around"

Wight claims, "I've been takign it easy this week. Went... really hard last week."

Errisar exclaims, "It's been very good, but I haven't been able to be on as much!"

Civetta says, "Work schedule slowly getting a little onerous again but keeping up with the paperwork and getting a few good scenes in."

Satoshi states, "I know that's a problem, valkyrie, but you can always invite ppl to come play with you, or buy free drinks at a tavern and send around messengers"

Venamelia says, "Been doing a lot of tooling this week, and a few very sweet moments :D"

Satoshi claims, "It's always a bummer when you're sitting by yourself but it can be a cycle, believe me, I know"

MaybeEartha states, "Its my first week, and my first mud. its really fun and i like the community. im a little frustrated about some things but im tryna solve em so eh "

Valkyrie says, "I am usually in a tavern, trying to involve people to come using their hooks but nothing comes out of it :/"

Temi questions, "Are the frustrations stuff staff ought to be aware of?"

MaybeEartha states, "Nope"

KingDeeDeeDee declaims, "Soon YOU'LL be the one having private scenes!"

Kitty states, "I have, admittedly, been feeling a bit disconnected from some of my characters. But, I imagine that comes and goes."

Condensation states, "Not always easy to figure out who to invite, too, hooks or not. I feel that, Valk."

Anonymous says, "I cant speak for others but I can say that I will almost ALWAYS respond to stuff that corresponds to my characters hooks"

Temi nods at Kitty.

Satoshi says, "An easy one is just message prepare, recip all"

Temi says to Kitty, "It certainly does for me"

Satoshi says, "Send town criers out to EVERYONE"

Yinadele claims, "I try to be accessible even if irl can pull me away."

KingDeeDeeDee muses, "D-does that work?"

Yinadele states, "It does."

Yinadele says, "Use wisely."

KingDeeDeeDee claims, "Ohhhh noooo"

Puck says, "Use to send dirty jokes."

Satoshi says, "Yeah, it's 20 silver but you can easily grab everyone else who is also possibly sitting bored with no hooks"

Puck nods.

MaybeEartha trails off, "Queens Inn... havent spent 30 min there without there suddenly being 5 people and me running away"

Valkyrie says, "I'll give all a shot. I've had something about 100 hrs of online time, half rp the other half finding rp. Maybe that'll help a bit."

Condensation states, "Oh, those are good averages."

Temi nods.

Satoshi states, "It's also easier if you get 1-2 people and get closer to them. And are persistent"

KingDeeDeeDee states, "That's about my ratio too, don't feel bad"

Condensation says, "61 versus 252 here."

Temi claims, "I've definitely felt 'It never rains but it pours' on RP sometimes."

Kitty states, "Type 'activity' - it gives you the basic stats for everyone else."

Yinadele claims, "I will say your online time will general equal double your RP ime."

Chipotle says, "That sounds pretty normal to me, personally"

Wight says, "I would actually like to remind people that it can be good to spread out crowded scenes too to other bars/locations if it makes sense icly"

Satoshi says, "Or use join spots"

Wight states, "^ That too"

Anonymous trails off, "B-but my legendary xp..."

Valkyrie questions, "Ah so that's about normal?"

KingDeeDeeDee claims, "But muh LEGENDARY"

MaybeEartha states, "Bar hopping lets go"

Satoshi says, "Join spots keep yo legendary"

Satoshi says, "Also you keep the rpxp gain if you keep the emotes rolling quickly, I've found"

Satoshi says, "Even if you leave a very crowded scene"

KingDeeDeeDee states, "About normal, yeah. "

MaybeEartha drinks from a clay mug with a handle, filled to the brim with black tea.

Satoshi states, "It only drops if you let it wait several minutes with no responses. And yeah, fairly normal"

Kitty claims to Temi, "More... I think people sometimes only reach out to certain characters when they need something, and sorta forget that those characters might want casual RP, too, and not just 'work' RP. No matter how much a character is liked (I don't think any of mine are unliked), the 'people only poke me when they need me' thing gets tiring."

NotNaomi nods.

Temi nods at Kitty.

Valkyrie claims, "I've experienced that as well with the class relations thing."

KingDeeDeeDee claims, "Not me, give me silver or give me peace"

Kitty states, "Characters lacking deep connections with people are hard to play."

Temi says, "Know how that goes."

Temi asks, "Seems pretty positive in general, with some people having a tough time getting RP.  Anything bothering anyone, besides stuff that's already topics, that staff ought to know about?"

Condensation states, "You can only sit at a bar lifting cups with half-strangers oh, so many times before it gets old."

Chipotle says, "Lacking a deeper connection to people also makes it hard to reach out to them, though. I think that goes two ways."

Murrmurs declaims, "Also going to put out a recommendation to go fishing for antag RP that may involve catching scenes with characters who you don't get along with!"

Satoshi says, "Make those strangers into not-strangers"

NotNaomi claims, "I really hope to see everyone mingling at the festival after the meeting (shameless plug)"

MaybeEartha says, "Yea im struggling a little with the stranger issue. i got a friend into the game and that helps "

Anonymous trails off, "Honestly.... I feel that having less 'casual' encounters is the price you pay for having a position of power"

Murrmurs nods at Eartha, "Getting known is challenging, yeah."

Philly is idle.

Condensation says, "Getting acknowledged, even."

KingDeeDeeDee claims, "Just that staff seem to be a little busy lately, which means casual requests get a No that would otherwise get a Maybe if they were less overworked"

KingDeeDeeDee claims, "We <3 and appreciate you staff, pls don't overwork"

Cira is idle.

Temi wonders, "Is there something specific in mind for that sort of thing?"

Cira is no longer idle.
Cira has returned from AFK.

Puck muses, "Real general question on that point but is there more we can do as players that avoids requiring staff assistance?"

KingDeeDeeDee states, "Nothing specific without calling anyone out or making it a topic I should wait in line for"

Cira drinks from a clay mug with a handle, filled to the brim with black tea.

Cira drinks from a clay mug with a handle, filled to the brim with black tea.
Cira discards a clay mug with a handle, filled to the brim with black tea as empty.

Temi claims, "There's often a lot of stuff that can be RPed out without needing staff help."

Valkyrie claims, "The game's been a net positive despite some bad experiences so do let us know if something can be done."

Satoshi says, "I think just acknowledge that since staff is busy to either agree on an outcome in RP for stuff that might need quick answers, or else only try to RPA for stuff you can't find out IC"

Satoshi states, "Or else augment your RPA with IC actions"

Venamelia sneezes loudly.

Satoshi claims, "RPAing finding something out, you can also go about asking people or sending out mails"

Philly is no longer idle.
Philly has returned from AFK.

Temi nods.

Puck nods.

Temi claims, "Generally, there's at least someone who knows what's going on."

Temi questions, "Okay, let's shift on to player topics.  Anonymous?"

Civetta says, "People who know what's going on tend to want to talk about it"

Civetta states, "So try and poke 'em"

Kinaed has returned from AFK.

Anonymous states, "I have a suggestion for herbalism and husbandry: a SURVEY command that prints out the tending/harvestable status of every plant or animal in the room"

Chipotle says, "Super into that."

Anonymous trails off, "Because if I have a bunch fo plants and have to look at every single one... its annoying"

Anonymous says, "And if I have one of those harvestable ingredients in my inventory, it looks at that and not the plant"

Yinadele claims, "+1 to this suggestion."

Kitty claims, "Do you use MUSHclient? There's a plugin."

Anonymous states, "I do not, I have mudlet"

Murrmurs says, "Same boat as anon, +1"

Satoshi says, "As far as I know, the look to see tend only shows 'is good, needs tending, or ailing'"

Raspberries says, "You can setup alias for checking plants, but animals are hard because there's no common keyword"

KingDeeDeeDee says, "I'm a big nerd and programmed an alias to do that"

Puck says, "I thought they all had livestock as keywords."

Anonymous claims, "Yes, but I want a command ot print the status of all the plants in th eroom you're in"

Murrmurs says, "I think QoL like that shouldn't rely on alias/plugin."

Kitty states, "You can look all.plant. The plugin for MUSHclient is helpful because it has colors."

Sparkles queries, "You know you can also write aliases to stack commands?"

Puck says, "Yeah, I support the suggestion! But if it's approved and takes a while to come in, lots of options."

Satoshi trails off, "Honestly, I have many gardens, I just... try to tend everything every few days"

Philly says, "Semi-related: Did the potted plants commentary Deedee brought up ever go anywhere? Would LOVE that."

Raspberries states, "I'll have to check the livestock keyword, that might be a new thing"

Satoshi states, "Just because it doesn't hurt stuff to over tend, and you get free pool"

Murrmurs declares, "HUGE +1 on POTTED PLANT QUESTION!"

Deedee declaims, "Don't think it has yet!"

NotNaomi states, "Potted plants would be great."

Valkyrie states, "More furniture is always a +"

Deedee says, "For those who haven't read it- it's basically spending a couple of QP to remove the notake from a normal plant, so you can pick it up and move it anywhere"

Kinaed queries, "Suggestions noted. Wasn't really following along, a bit out of it. Temi has had to step AFK for a sec. May we move to the next topic?"

Anonymous trails off, "I'm like... 85 percent sure that you dont get pool for tending plants that dont need it"

Satoshi says, "I think that would totally get rid of the point of needing a garden room though"

Satoshi claims, "Also you totally do, I got GM herb by tending craft"

Puck states, "You can already request for moveable plants. But I would guess that doing so for the purpose of having plants outside of garden rooms is unbalancing."

Kinaed says to Yinadele, "That's your turn to introduce. :)"

Murrmurs asks, "Potted plants is as much wanting pretty plants in non-garden rooms; perhaps making it so they produce nothing?"

Yinadele begins, "I've noted several documents, particularly paper objects edited by people, start to no longer respond to look bject] or read commands. While normally a bug report could just be submitted, I was hoping to get this known by the community and broadcast awareness; using look post will show the contents. I know this, based on other comments, seems to be tied to the breaking of a message to show 'different ink was used' on a paper.  I have not seen this message in the entirety of my play, but older players have mentioned it to me." 

 "Is a patch that fixes this bug able to retroactively fix these objects? Should we bother staff on fixing individual objects?"

Deedee states, "You would still need a garden room to start the plant, and potting it would cost QP"

Puck muses, "Might be able to do that as is with restringing decorative flowers or getting vases?"

Yinadele begins, "I've noted several documents, particularly paper objects edited by people, start to no longer respond to 'look bject]' or 'read' commands. While normally a bug report could just be submitted, I was hoping to get this known by the community and broadcast awareness; using 'look post' will show the contents. I know this, based on other comments, seems to be tied to the breaking of a message to show 'different ink was used' on a paper.  I have not seen this message in the entirety of my play, but older players have mentioned it to me." 

 "Is a patch that fixes this bug able to retroactively fix these objects? Should we bother staff on fixing individual objects?"

Murrmurs sticks a pin in the potted plant topic to focus on Yindale!

Yinadele says, "Fix'd*"

Kinaed states, "We need bug reports with logs please."

Yinadele states, "I did. When I reported it before, it was answered by Erika."

Kinaed claims, "Also request board individual obj fixes"

Raspberries states, "Would be nice if there was a bug report system similar to plots that you could attach copies of problem objects to"

KingDeeDeeDee starts writing a note. (This is an OOC action)

Satoshi says, "If it was deleted, might want to just re-post it again"

Kinaed says, "Please edit your bug report to bump it then, and make sure a log is attached."

Yinadele claims, "Number 55 in bug reports."

Satoshi states, "Bump it so its at the top of the list"

KingDeeDeeDee finishes their note.

Yinadele starts editing a note. (This is an OOC action)

Kinaed pontificates, "Thank you!"

Kinaed questions, "Did anyone else have a topic?"

Valkyrie says, "Me"

Yinadele finishes his note.

Yinadele states, "Civetta did."

Kinaed says to Valkyrie, "Please introduce us."

Valkyrie questions, "I was thinking of a QOL for ' craft -show '. Noticed twice now that an item has gone from Y to N for giving xp without having the skill level change. Instead of typing ' craft ' followed by c several times, can ' craft -show ' also show if an item will give you xp or not?"

Valkyrie claims, "Replace craft by woodwork, blacksmith and so on."

Kinaed claims, "Sounds like another bug report with a log."

Satoshi says, "Crafts eventually stop giving pool if you use them a lot"

Raspberries claims, "Recipes*"

Chipotle says, "I don't think that intends to be a bug report at all, actually."

Satoshi says, "Yes that's what I meant"

Satoshi claims, "It's intended"

Satoshi states, "Once it stops giving pool you succeed it every time"

Kinaed states, "Good to know."

Kitty claims, "Not a bug. They are asking if 'pool' 'yes or no' can be added to the 'show' command with crafting, like it is on the list."

Wight says, "Kin that's working as intended"

Satoshi states, "So you have a chance frak it up until you get familiar with the recipe. That also counts for, say, the 75 cooking recipes"

Valkyrie states, "And because it's intended, I was wondering if the XP eligibility can be shown when you type, for example, woodwork -show 650."

NotNaomi declares, "That would be a good addition!"

Raspberries says, "I think I remember seeing a similar request on the ideas board."

Satoshi states, "That doesn't seem like a bad idea, but it MIGHT require staff to manually adjust each 'craft show'"

Kinaed claims, "We will consider it, writing it down in botes for staff to review (as you can see, I'm not super across the craft system)"

KingDeeDeeDee claims, "Botes"

Temi claims, "Sorry, ready back quickly"

Kinaed has gone AFK.

Raspberries says, "Boted."

Kinaed claims to Civetta, "Your topic is up :)"

Civetta claims, "Oh geeze"

Temi nods.

Civetta states, "This is big, so, sorry"

Civetta takes a deep breath in before starting: "A caveat before I begin, this is a rough topic, I volunteered to fall on this sword because every time it's come up in the past it's been either shot down or so completely misinterpereted as to be rendered pointless so I am going to try to clarify some of the points after having talked with a variety of people."

"1) Many of the GLs, and people in highly politicized positions like knights, inquisitors, civil servants have begun to feel like they have a lack of agency in the world and affecting kingdom politics. A couple months ago this got spun out into a really distracting conversation about whether or not Ducal capitals should be built out. Which I feel was the wrong focus entirely. As an example of this powerlessness Lyonie is a member of the Royal Council an advisor to nobility on legal, historical, millitary, and civil administrative topics, but in court settings has been expected to act like a glorified guard which is honestly the least interesting and compelling part of the Reeve universe. The previous two court sessions have been extremely stifling in terms of RP hooks and the message has been you the players keep the city metrics stable (always unstable by design) and let us the NPCs handle anything not immediately involved with grid. This frustration with feeling impactful lead to one player sacrificing their character (Ianthe) with behavior that caused staff to change travel policy in a way that is quite possibly going to negatively impact the horizons of roleplay, because they literally tried everything they could possibly think of to affect a positive result on a plot header. Which brings me to:"

Civetta continues, "2) With regards to the current header and earlier related ones, most of the players interacting with it have expressed frustration that it's impossible to get a positive response to plots or plans, the whole situation has the deck stacked to neutral or outright negative. This has caused frustrations: the Samael Dynasty is a product of years and years of player and staff cooperation in changing the history of the world. The new focus on harmonism feels like it's come out of left field in the context of sevenish years of similar headers that have been focused on how to let players collaboratively influence the world, this feels wholly antagonistic but antagonistic in a way that's patently unwinnable. On a concerning note all of this stuff seemed to crop up around the same time S. was banned and has felt like a concerted effort to systematically erase every single one of her contributions to the game world. Even if this isn't the case there has been frustration with the way in which plots have unfolded: a deeply disliked GL acts alone with limited resources in the middle of a gambit against her leadership and immediately changes the face of the game world in a matter of days, uprooting and undermining months and even years of planning and RP that characters have been looking forward to. Contrast this to dealing with the current header: a plurality of players and a majority of deeply beloved and well connected GLs have poured thousands upon thousands of silver, hundreds of IP and QP into plots to affect this header and have been progressively losing ground over the better part of a year."

Civetta claims, "It's frustrating even trying to rope anyone into such a header because every NPC seems to be infuriatingly neutral so you try to find a tailor made PC and their NPC family and find a place in this world and these problems for them and then they too start hitting these brick walls and having trouble finding reason to continue. Long, convoluted but brings me to:""

Civetta continues "3) Staff has increasingly been turning the focus of the game towards automation and gamification by virtue of being a small group of volunteers with busy lives. This is fine if these systems work or make sense. A few examples here A) Theodora is an Entrenched GL, she starts a plot to interact with one of her subordinates the Court Bard of Vandago and is informed that said subordinate will not cooperate with her interests or provide her with information. She now has no recourse to leverage her authority as GL vis a vis impacting the world. B) GLs have a number of guild specific mechanics they can use to impact the world. Guilds have used every single one of these with global effects in regards to the current header target; Exile, Excommunication, Warrants, Redlist, and Blacklist. These have had entirely negative affects with regards to the progress of the header. Doing nothing would appear to produce better results. C) NPCs are supposed to be living breathing people with aspirations, ambitions, connections and interests yet in plot after plot NPCs have either supported Roland outright or been neutral on the matter of Roland. The few exceptions are the Lithmorran domains immediately connected with the current dynasty. We're told that x, y, and z domains support Roland but when we dig down and look at the history of those domains they actually have a reason to support the current dynasty: a player was astonished to discover that the Sevois of Endridge have been backing Roland and that if all the knights venerable supported Estella that would also include the Sevois and the likes of Paer de Laern (and those who were trained by him) if he yet lived who were all outstanding supporters of the present dynasty. Which leads me to:"

Civetta concludes, "4) This is about player agency writ large. TI is so outstanding because it has been so comitted to creating a world that the characters that we play can leave an oversized impact on if we make a concerted effort to. It feels, playing these days that there's a concerted effort to move the theme of the game away from this central conceit and that the interactions between staff and players as far as the -story- we are telling is concerned have become antagonistic instead of collaborative. Whenever this gets brought up here in the weekly meetings we are asked to stop because it negatively impacts staff morale but by shutting down such frustrations player morale is diminished and so we end up talking around each other instead of addressing what's really getting people chapped.

"In conclusion, I'm hoping discussing these problems with communication can fix it in terms of feedback and staff reaction going forwards, and that maybe we address what can be done if fatigue is an issue for staff. I do want to express that managing a rump state in decline with player agency seeming to have no impact, isn't fun. Some of us feel we're being denied a chance to explore and celebrate the theme that we got to watch our predecessors create."

Murrmurs says, "+1"

Civetta adds "Some personal caveats here, social RP, political RP, player history and metaplot are my favorite parts of games, this isn't 'plot fatigue' so much as a lack of feeling like big important characters doing big important things is doing a heck of a lot of nothing anytime it comes up. I think some of the previous instances of 'plot fatigue' have been this too, and someone asked me to bring up this post from last october: https:/ti-legacy.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2163&start=10" Civetta chirps "Second, a reminder to players. You get a free plot against headers while they're active every week. I know most of the GL players I have been playing with do their best to involve characters with kingdom scale headers but you don't need them to do that if you wanna do stuff. If you are having trouble thinking of ideas of how to into politics stuff grab a GL or, if any show up, grab an apped in titled noble, they are constantly in need of engaging RP like that to keep them from fading away into nothing." Civetta winds down, "Lastly from me and I'll shut up and let everyone else talk, stuff going on in the world has been big and incredibly stressful and life changing and things going slow is completely understandable, this isn't necessarially about pacing either, it's about having at least a few crunchy next steps and things we can latch onto and have as RP hooks when we engage with NPCs instead of every response appearing as noncomittal neutrality."

Deedee claims, "You might want to paste that into a discussion on the forums"

Civetta I don't do forums much but

Civetta states, "Yes."

Phoenixdoll is idle.

Kinaed states, "I cannot read that because my screen jumps every time I try due to the length."

Satoshi says, "I will say as someone keeping tabs on the plot, whether or not it is intended, it very much feels like Roland has plot immunity to every single thing that a GL or player might use against him"

Yinadele says, "This seems to have be recurrent as a set of complaints, with everyone interacting with the plot I've spoken with IC and OOC."

Civetta states, "Revisiting a few different points from previous meeting that were, I think, not really understood."

Philly says, "+1 To this. I made a character specifically to try and do -something- for plot and just got really disheartened. No matter how powerful, popular, rich, IP heavy my character ICly should be, impacting plots feels completely sysephian."

Temi states, "I will say that I've not been actively advancing stuff due to the RL situation with everything going crazy, and have mainly been replying to things people have been doing."

Satoshi says, "Excommunication should, theme wise, be THE thing. THE banhammer. The biggest frak you the game can do to anyone. If it was used on a player they would literally be unplayable. But an NPC is completely immune to the effects"

MaybeEartha is idle.

Murrmurs claims, "The pbase feels very impotent."

Kitty states, "I agree that this topic is, possibly, too large for this kind of meeeting and would be more helpful on the forums where people have time to read, analyze, and reply appropriately."

Satoshi says, "That said, the IRL situation is delicate and everyone is harried and pushed to their limits and I want everyone to acknowledge that before we continue"

Philly says, "And it's not about 'winning' or 'losing', just... wanting to be able to do something to get the last 2.5 years to mean SOMETHING for this game."

Yinadele states, "I think the examples kind of show that's not the main issue, @Temi. It's a seeming 'neutral to negative' response to all plot movements that players experience, and dissonance between mechanics and outcome."

Condensation muses, "Ninety-nine of that flew right above me head. There's plots?"

Murrmurs nods with Yinadele. 

Anonymous claims, "I have thoughts on this but will respond to them on the forums when it's posted"

Venamelia declares, ""Second, a reminder to players. You get a free plot against headers while they're active every week." I did not know that!"

Kinaed states, "Again, I cannot even read the text to respond on my client."

phoenixdoll is no longer idle.
Phoenixdoll has returned from AFK.

Satoshi states, "I think there is a LOT of staff attention on 'random rolls' and 'keeping things neutral' but this is a story based game and not a random numbers game"

Galax states, "I have been waiting for the term to resolve before relaying my feedback, but I generally appreciate the cadence of Yinadele's post and think it is a valuable discussion to have."

Galax asks, "Is someone able to transcribe/format for the forums?"

MaybeEartha is no longer idle.
MaybeEartha drinks from a clay mug with a handle, filled to the brim with black tea.

Yinadele states, "I can do so."

NotNaomi claims, "Big belated +1 to that."

Wight says, "I'd like to +1 to that as well in general. It's been an ongoing frustration even as someone not directly involved."

Temi says, "I will also add, I don't believe in win-win situations.  There's not going to be a silver bullet that solves everything.  There's going to be give and take.  I have presented a number of answers to people that can be pursued and haven't seen them done yet, so I'm sorry if they don't feel approachable."

Valkyrie states, "I can agree to it even if I don't understand some of it."

Cira is idle.

Satoshi claims, "Staff are the storytellers to the world, able to do things with NPCs to interact with the players that even players and storytellers can't do and the general feel has been 'I am useless' from every single big player being told, essentially from the gods of the game, that they are doing things and they do nothing"

Kinaed wonders, "Is someone cut/pasting Civetta's topic on its own to the forums?"

Galax states to Kinaed, "I think so"

Wight says, "I'll grab it Kin"

Civetta says, "It's less the need to win and more... we went to every one of the dukes and got stonewalled by every one, every time we engage we're stonewalled and have to go back to the drawing board, there are no hooks."

KingDeeDeeDee questions, "... What's a header?"

Anonymous states, "It's a plot thing that I honestly don't understand very well. Like an overarching story arch, or something like that."

Anonymous says, "Plots are still confusing to me, and I don't use them much"

Errisar agrees with King. 

Yinadele says OOCly, "Https://ti-legacy.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2275"

Valkyrie has lost link.

Yinadele says, "Header is the whole 'diplomatic situation with Vandago'. It's the 'main, staff run plot' currently unfolding."

Kinaed states, "It's hard to say what you guys are all talking about, but vaguely, I often feel like players become abusive, potentially passive aggressive, and sometimes outright aggressive towards plot staff when they don't get what they want or somehow, with their limited perspective of the whole picture, feel staff are biased, etc."

Wight says, "It does not feel like providers with any way to meaningfully interact with the ongoing plot in any capacity, on or for either side."

Wight says, "*like players are provided with"

Valkyrie has reconnected.

Yinadele claims, "Kinaed, I don't think that's untrue, but this is also a negative feedback cycle- Civetta points out explicit examples of issues that are occurring to discuss this."

Satoshi claims, "Say I think given this is a repeat topic that has come up every step of the way that that attitude might be from not feeling acknowledged in their words"

Murrmurs says to Kinaed, "Kin, your pbase is across the board burnt out and feeling bad on the OOC front at this point."

Yinadele says, "And is not attacking staff, but the issues as faced by players."

Murrmurs nods.

Yinadele states, "Https://ti-legacy.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2275 I've also done some extra paragraph breaks for readability."

Satoshi states, "I think even just an ackowledgement of the issue might lessen some of the more aggressive people, instead of focusing on different topics"

Valkyrie claims to Temi, "I may have a problem with my laptop having crashed, losing the log."

Wight claims, "I'd like to emphasis yina's point here. I don't think this is deliberate by staff, but I do think that something has broken down communcation wise for everybody to get to the current point."

Cira is no longer idle.
Cira has returned from AFK.

Yinadele states, "Agreed. I think this is something that can only be defused by discussion and everyone hugging it out and trying to avoid hostility in the future."

Wight claims, "There's a LOT of ooc frustration around this."

Murrmurs agrees with Yina.

Raspberries says, "I've got the log covered."

Temi states, "I feel like I've provided pros and con sides on most things investigated, and hooks for opportunities with downsides.  Everything will have downsides."

Kinaed says, "Honestly, for many years, TI did not ven have  plot system, and I often wonder if by opening it up, if we went the wrong way. The system is a huge overhead, and it seems like no matter what we do, players aren't happy. At best case, some players do not "attack staff", but you can bet your bottom dollar that many players do."

NotNaomi claims, "As someone new to political plots, I felt fairly discouraged from them after the first one."

Yinadele claims, "Player negativity is being reinforced with consistent 'neutral to negative' feedback by staff consistently."

Kitty says, "I think... and please don't beat me up for it... that as Kin said she cannot reply because she couldn't see the topic, we might want to hash this out on the forums."

Satoshi says, "I agree forums would be good so players who are not present can reply and add their thoughts"

Raspberries nods in agreement.

Kinaed nods at Kitty.

Yinadele claims, "I've posted it on forums for Kin to be able to read."

Puck asks, "Post is at https://ti-legacy.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2275"

Wight pontificates, "I'll delete mine then Yina! Mine is super rough and unformatted"

Valkyrie has lost link.

Temi says, "My general belief is that to make progress, you'll want to think what you are willing to give up to get it."

Raspberries claims, "Let's move this to the forums, maybe revisit next week"

Valkyrie has reconnected.

Valkyrie asks, "Oh no, that's not a good sign. Did my message go through?"

Satoshi states, "And I think everyone should also be mindful that staff is also busy and possibly burnt out from the plot too"

Kinaed says, "Kitty has a point. I'm replying to the comments people are making ABOUT the topic, can't actually read the topic."

Yinadele says, "Afraid not, Valk."

Condensation says, "I always worry over plot systems. They seem to burn people out doing off-grid stuff, which then in turn hinders the actual grid."

Temi says to Valkyrie, "Yep, thanks, Raspberries is taking care of the log"

Raspberries .

Anonymous says, "Before I make my post on the forums, I would like to ask the staff: Do you have the 'end' or resolution of the current header planned, or is it decided on the fly as events unfold? I don't want to know what it is, just if you've planned it in advance."

Kitty states, "If I'm perfectly honest, I even only skimmed it. It was far too long, and the screen kept bumping because people were saying stuff. I'd much prefer time to look at it."

Philly pontificates, "Alright. I really look forward to the respectful and engaging discussion we'll all have about this on the forums, friends!"

Temi says to Anonymous, "We have ideas of some different ways things can go, but nothing sorted out and most responses are handled adhoc as events unfold"

Anonymous says, "Okay, thank you"

Errisar states, "Let me know when I should start my topic."

Chipotle says, "I think I will conserve my opinions for The Forums, then."

Temi nods.

Temi says, "Probably better on the forums."

Raspberries claims, "Low on time anyway. I did have a reminder if there's time before we go"

Temi says, "Okay, let's get Errisar's topic quick."

Errisar claims, "It's not critical, but here we go."

Errisar claims, "I want to talk about the limited availability of certain items that are essential for basic crafting or utilities. Freemen cannot buy things only sold at the general store right now, like a keyring and firestriker, and only the keyring can be made by a crafter. They should logically be common items in a medieval setting, especially the firestriker, which cannot be bought elsewhere. It can be frustrating to have such common items only from limited locations. I have heard that other items, like needles, are also hard to get with the class strife going on when they should be easy to get. I would like to recommend that other versions of these items be available in southside or other areas, just as for bedrolls. Maybe things like 'a rusty keyring', 'a rough chunk of flint and rusty striker', or 'a crude bone needle', etc. This gives new players options who need these items."

Sparkles is idle.

Kinaed claims, "I am a bit  ... offput by the mention of Ianthe's player in this as if they did something honorable and are an example of why staff changed travel policy, etc. Ianthe's behavior was fundamentally terrible to staff  and they are no hero for any cause despite whatever truth their .ay be to the rest of the discussion. If this is based on that player's complaining and dissatisfaction, then I'd say there are likely large parts of spin involved and a desire to outright attack staff out of personal dissatisfaction. "

MaybeEartha claims, "+1. Very frustrating."

Raspberries states, "I wouldn't mind such being made available in southside, but on the other hand, needing to seek out another PC does lead to RP opportunities"

NotNaomi declaims, "Agree with that, and in the meantime... don't hesitate to poke a Merchant!"

Condensation claims, "Checked southside? There's a lot of lower-qual alternatives to things in Southside. And there's of course always other players. I, myself, get employed by a few to do their Freeman-only shopping, and I can hook them up if I'd need stuff Gentry-only shops have."

Satoshi claims, "Almost all crafting items can be gotten cheapler from southside"

Temi states, "There definitely is multiple locations on some items already, yeah."

Sparkles is no longer idle.

Satoshi states, "Or from crafters"

Raspberries nods.

Kinaed says, "Looks like I missed the convo moving on while IAW reading."

Temi nods at Kinaed.

Kinaed says, "Zipping it."

Raspberries nods at Kinaed.

Murrmurs nods at Kinaed. 

Condensation states, "Needles, for example, Jewelers can make. Them being expensive in a shop is a great hook to find a jeweler."

Temi says to Kinaed, "Just talking about availability of different basic items across the classes."

Errisar says, "Yeah, I bring up the firestriker as an example, because I have not found another way to get it, even going through southside, and it is not craftable. I've been using the last week to rangle people for my character to get one, and don't want someone else to have that frustration."

Philly says, "I guess my only complaint with that is that it seems like a lot of merchants are incredibly overworked at present, and that the majority of the guild are Apprentices who cannot take commissions"

KingDeeDeeDee exclaims, "There's also tools for free use in three southside almshouse!"

Puck says, "\o/"

Satoshi says, "It does bring up frustration, though, if there are no crafters about, since you cannot guarantee there will be someone able to make a thing"

MaybeEartha queries, "I struggled finding tailoring supplies, even in southside. but yea if the goal is to make players rely on each other... hm. is there a list of merchants? "

Sparkles says, "The thing is that last part is by player rules and choice not game rules."

Anonymous says, "There is a list of merchants"

NotNaomi says, "There are a lot of new crafters, but they'll be able to commission stuff soon enough :)"

Satoshi states, "But the apprentices thing isn't staff related, that's Merchant rules"

Anonymous says, "GUILDLIST MERCHANTS"

Philly questions, "Oh! Speaking of free tools: Would it be possible to re-stock the supplies at the University crafting rooms and make them no-take?"

Murrmurs states, "Guildlist Merchants"

Condensation claims, "GUILDLIST MERCHANTS, or boards."

Chipotle claims, "Mortar and pestle was my previous issue. It's a non-craftable item that is... a bowl and a stick. +1 to more options for these essential items"

Puck states, "I get the fundamental issue, and agree that things that are deemed essential, especially when not craftable, ought to be available somewhere for anyone."

Temi nods at Satoshi.

Phoenixdoll states, "I mean apprentice merchants can take commissions under the table if they want "

Sparkles states, "The whole Apprentices cannot take commissions is a thing that we seem to enforce based on our community expectations about strings from what I can tell."

Puck says, "I'd assume when those pop up they're more likely oversight than intentionally unavailable though."

Temi claims, "I've always hated the apprentices can't take commissions thing."

Satoshi wonders, "God are people stealing from the public rooms agani? It really will need to be a player bleeding QP onto the items I think"

Condensation states, "And we can accept commissions, sort'a.. Just need to ask for approval."

Philly pontificates, "Oooh mortar and pestle should be makable in art if it's not already!"

NotNaomi claims, "I'd love for some of the non-craftable items that should be craftable to be available, for example mortar and pestle"

Satoshi claims, "The apprentices thing exists only because some players are new and need to learn how to tool things"

Satoshi says, "I really don't think it should be across the board all apprentices"

NotNaomi exclaims, "And apprentices can take commissions so long as they clear it with a magnate!"

Puck states, "But empathy for your frustration, Errisar."

Satoshi claims, "Because commissions make grinding way easier"

Puck claims, "Jobs might help get quicker reaction from others who can help."

Condensation says, "Yeah, it's not a shitty system. Just ask for approval."

Errisar says, "I would be cool with a firestriker being makeable with blacksmithing, since it's a really simple project. I did one in just an hour or two of playing with a forge in real life."

Condensation says, "I think I read in their helpfiles their Mentors may approve of their commisisons, too."

Puck states, "I know that I'd come running across alts to help if I knew people were class or race blocked and I could help out."

Puck states, "Are you on the forums? Good place to request things like this so they're not lost and forgotten about."

Galax states, "I do think its important to highlight that a lot of guild rules are set by players, not in stone. Have no strong opinions on merchant policy either way, just think it should be noted"

NotNaomi claims, "There are lots of freemen who have helped me out in class relations binds"

Raspberries nods.

Temi says, "Definitely feel free to request specific things on the ideas section of the forums"

Anonymous says, "GL's, with a few limitations, have carte blanche over how the guild is run"

Temi says, "I can't promise how quickly we'll get to them, but we do look at them."

NotNaomi nods.

Chipotle trails off, "I have lost heart for forum suggestions. alas.............. lockpicks"

Civetta claims, "Guildleaders have a -lot- of flex to change much of guild policy."

Errisar states, "I guess I should get on the forums as well, and I'll put up some requests and ideas."

KingDeeDeeDee declaims, "When I was an apprentice I took under-the-table commissions all the time. SORRY NAOMI!"

Civetta states, "You can run it how you want, but TRADITION is a strong force."

Condensation claims, "B A N H A M M E R incoming."

Deedee states, "Probably better to keep that IC, notDeedee"

Condensation ducks.

KingDeeDeeDee claims, "What I mean is, it's an IC rule, not OOC"

Temi nods in agreement with KingDeeDeeDee.

Galax pontificates, "Good to note that IC rules are not OOC rules too, and Doing Crime is fun!"

Anonymous says, "Until norrig thwacks you with his hammer anyway"

Temi questions, "Alright.  I think we had someone wanting to make a quick announcement before we finished up?"

Puck claims, "Not to arrange via OOC, Errisar, but for what it's worth, I'll try to be more aggressive in looking for IC calls for assistance and/or make blanket offers."

KingDeeDeeDee exclaims, "Criiime!"

Chipotle says, "Except for *that* crime. You know the one."

Phoenixdoll claims, "Lockpicks being a higher level of jeweler makes me sad"

Raspberries declares, "Yup!"

Galax says, "That's the funnest part"

Unrecognized command.  Perhaps you meant the following:
         jsayto   

Galax winks

Chipotle claims, "Really though, I'm sore about lockpick crafting."

Condensation declaims, "And approach Apprentices, folk! We want your mon-- work!"

Raspberries muses, "Just a reminder, the Charali perspectives contest is up. Post your savage opinions for fun and profit! (https://ti-legacy.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2268)"

Temi nods in agreement.

KingDeeDeeDee exclaims, "Approach apprentices!"

Temi claims, "I need to go through and process what's there's soon for some tasty qps."

Raspberries is still waiting for profit.

Phoenixdoll states, "I noticed this legit yesterday and I'm like well... I wonder if I can get jewellers to make me cheap lockpicks but.."

Puck grins.

Kitty claims, "I need to remember to do something with that."

Errisar exclaims, "Thanks to everybody for continuing to be awesome!"

Puck says, "I'm kind of bummed when I only hear about these things in OOC chats, honestly."

Galax states, "If you want items of dubious legality, blackmarket allows for 'i am buying <x>' posts"

Condensation claims, "Job board sounds like a fun way to find your lockpick crafter"

Puck claims, "It could totally be that I'm just not looking in the right places IC."

Condensation claims, "Or yeah, black market."

Kitty claims, "There are lockpicks available on grid. Just... not... in obvious places."

Galax claims, "Well, it's jobs now, but y'know what I mean"

Phoenixdoll claims, "Aha. Yeah."

Venamelia is idle.

Puck pontificates, "Anonymous job = blackmarket job now!"

Venamelia is no longer idle.

Venamelia has returned from AFK.

Chipotle says, "I suppose the large population of people with 50+ jeweling (which cannot be obtained without going through the merchants guild) surely must have someone amenable... alas."

Temi muses, "Okay.  I think we're about done then.  Party after the chat, yes?"

Satoshi claims, "Come get drunk yall"

Puck says, "There are probably people out there that are willing and able to help with just about anything."

NotNaomi declaims, "Yep!"

Raspberries says, "It's obtainable without going through the merchants, just not easily obtainable"

Errisar declares, "Absolutely!"

Satoshi says, "Also there's lockpicks for sale on grid in at least 1 place"

Valkyrie muses, "Where's the party at?"

Puck claims, "But needs have to be communicated."

NotNaomi declaims, "I'll be sending out a crier!"

Cira declares, "Apologies for not adding much!!! I'm just so painfully new that I don't even know what I don't know! C: I don't even know what the previous plot convo was about :sweatdrops:"

Chipotle states, "I'm just going to bump my forum suggestion instead of salting out here"

Temi declaims to Cira, "Not a problem at all!"

Raspberries pats Cira.

Condensation says, "Me neither, Cira. No worries."

MaybeEartha says, "Same"

KingDeeDeeDee declares, "Merchants make picks to sell to thieves to rob from merchants. IT'S THE CIIIIRCLE OF LIIIIIFE!"

Anonymous says, "I mostly keep quiet and spy on everyone else too"

Puck sweeps up Chipotle salt, bottles and sells it.

Wight exclaims, "Not a problem at all cira!"

Chipotle trails off, "Actually, side-tangent there..."

Venamelia claims, "You should look at it Cira, from what I saw about you, I think you will love it :D"

Murrmurs waves their crotchety old stick around.

Temi exclaims, "Okay, then, sending folks all back now!"

Chipotle claims, "It's kind of an important note that for most newer people, the plot is completely and totally opaque. I'm one of them."

Wight claims, "Returning players too."