Knights vs Mages - Game Design

[chronodbu]

Let's not kid ourselves Vaxin. Gothan's death was an attempt to keep the Order broken up and wave the proverbial mage hammer around. There is almost always an alternative to death and this one did nothing to further any narrative. Your example of what you did to Toroni an excellent point.

So stop trying to paint yourself or those who joined you as right in it.

[Niamh]

Lets keep the discussion civil, please.

[SilentPhantom]

Hey, I've been following Inquisition somewhat from the shadows for a pretty long time. I was a casual player a few years back, and have only recently just returned to the game to really get into the meat of it.

I know I'm not the best source of information because I haven't really been involved in a lot of these plots, but I know a couple of the players of certain characters involved fairly well and I've talked to them a lot about the kind of stuff that goes on, because I find the theme and the RP that happens within the game really interesting.

I honestly believe that the mechanics of a game cannot be the deciding factor when it comes to driving RP. Mechanics can complement and strengthen RP, but it cannot be the reason alone for people to act.

We are here to tell interesting stories, and first and foremost those stories should be from us, and not dictated by the mechanics of the game.

If the Earl Marshall, the one who leads the knights to vanquish the heretical mages, is murdered by a heretical mage, in his own home turf, then that should be cause for an absolute massive stirring of RP in response. A city is like an organism, and should react accordingly when massive things like this happen.

I don't care how powerful or badass the mage is, the theme of the game is much too important to put aside for anything of this caliber. There should be some kind of IC repercussions, either on the citizenry of the city where the church and the order start stamping down hard and oppressing even more, or the inquisitors should step up reviews and burnings to bring morale back up.

I understand what Vaxin is saying, though I do not agree with his methods, in that players will *always* act with self interest, whether you have a heavily coded system like Inq does, or you're playing a lighter MUSH. In these instances, I believe it's up to other people to pick up that slack and move forward, both players and admins of the game. There should be IC implications put forward by the admins where they see fit, and then that should in turn encourage players to continue to tell interesting stories from those actions.

What happened with Gothan was silly in my eyes, but nothing like that should ever be an excuse for us all to jump on the forums and start a big discussion about mechanics and balancing like this is some kind of PvP heavy game where PK is the goal, because it obviously isn't. Both the players and the admins should be looking for ways to turn what happened into an excuse to drive more RP.

[Misstery]

I highly dislike staff intervening in RP and driving how things materialize and turn out. This should be IC driven, otherwise people can take any measure they want and staff can just jump in and change it. Part of why I play Ti is because of the handsoff nature of staff. What limits RP for one might create it for another, that's hard to judge and will always be subjective. I'd rather the players write the story, which will always look different depends on where you are sitting.

Also please remember, we are all people sharing a collective experience-- everyone plays a role and let's be respectful of that. OOC rudeness drives me away from the game far sooner than code changes and contraversial IC actions.

[Andruid]

I don't think we should be making assumptions about what happens behind the scenes or outside of our own limited frames of reference, and there have been quite a few assumptions made in this thread already. Though, I would prefer it if fewer details were divulged about recent events, in particular.

The underdog fluctuates. Unfortunately, we are a small game, so even slight shifts in the pbase, mechanics, or the arrangement of guilds can be felt pretty dramatically. It wasn't all that long ago that we had no Manus, no Vaxin, and mages were complaining at OOC meetings that they couldn't find each other for RP. At the same time, we go through frequent periods without strong and dedicated players willing to take up the Knight/Order roles so crucial to our theme -- roles that, as Rothgar rightly pointed out, often feel like a second job. Typically, the high-ranking positions (in most guilds, really) are filled by new players who have no idea what they're doing, thus leading to all-too-common rumors about inadequate leadership or ineffectiveness, etc. etc. Ultimately, the OOC reality of a small playerbase is often at odds with our supposed IC reality of a powerful and numerous Order, especially when all we hear about are the criticized actions of a meager few.

I wish I could say this thread presents a new problem -- but it doesn't. We continue to work through balance issues as best we can. We continue to do our best to coach new players in difficult roles. We do our best to attract players TO those difficult roles. But we're probably going to get very far by subjectively criticizing each others' RP choices here. What we CAN do is provide the best feedback and constructive criticism possible to staff regarding balance issues and do our best to attract new players to the game.

[Rabek]

I highly dislike staff intervening in RP and driving how things materialize and turn out. This should be IC driven, otherwise people can take any measure they want and staff can just jump in and change it. Part of why I play Ti is because of the handsoff nature of staff. What limits RP for one might create it for another, that's hard to judge and will always be subjective. I'd rather the players write the story, which will always look different depends on where you are sitting.

Also please remember, we are all people sharing a collective experience-- everyone plays a role and let's be respectful of that. OOC rudeness drives me away from the game far sooner than code changes and contraversial IC actions.

On the contrary, I think the hands-off nature of the staff are why we're having these problems of late, especially with the Order. You can never, ever trust players to follow theme, except where it benefits them. Staff needs to be playing GameMaster and using the NPCs to provide the consequences and reactions to reinforce theme. Instead, I've seen them playing deliberately hands-off and supporting IC leadership even when IC leadership is directly contradicting established theme and helpfiles.

If there were consequences to the game outside of just the opinions of other players, TI would feel more alive, actions would feel like they matter, and TI would be a much better place all-around.

The downside, of course, is that staff are only human and their incredible responsiveness and openness (which I appreciate on both fronts) would necessarily suffer due to added workload.

[vaxin]

Let's not kid ourselves Vaxin. Gothan's death was an attempt to keep the Order broken up and wave the proverbial mage hammer around. So stop trying to paint yourself or those who joined you as right in it.

While I do enjoy waving the mage hammer around, I rarely smash people with it. I explained the reasoning behind the death of Gothan as a courtesy, I don't really see why I have to justify myself OOC to anyone but staff. You lack the full picture, probably even any of the picture, but you presume to judge so quickly. That's fine, but I don't think it's too much to ask that you don't insult me in the process.

The problem that I see is not only with the power of experience players, but the power that experience gives. I've died on enough mages that I've learned the best ways not to get caught, the most useful rooms, the minutiae of combat. There's always more things to learn, and Nalien was actually outted by a stupid mistake on my part, but knowledge of the code is what separates many new players from old players. Magic can be weakened until it doesn't exist, but you can't remove experience.

[Niamh]

Again, keep it civil.

[Misstery]

You can never, ever trust players to follow theme, except where it benefits them.

I think this statement is unfair and largely untrue. Ti has a huge learning curve but I think people try their best. I've certainly had a lot more positive experiences than negative.

[SilentPhantom]

I also think that amidst all the current conflict, we have to appreciate that the game is very much alive right now and has a lot going for it.

Even though some people may feel as though the current RP isn't what they'd like, it's great to see as a relatively new player that there are many opportunities to jump in. Everyone has been extremely friendly and I'm very glad to be playing right now.

So we can take the time to thank everyone here who dedicates their time to the game, admins and players alike.