Whoinvis Discussion General /WDG/

[Famine]

I find it remarkable that people are arguing so strongly for metagaming on an RP enforced game.

The who list is metagaming, flat out. It's knowing OOC things for your IC benefit. People don't have to use that information to hunt down and kill people for it to be metagaming. Looking at the who list, seeing Bob, and then sending a messenger to Bob because he's on the who list is using OOC info ICly. It's socially acceptable metagaming on TI, but it's still metagaming.

It shouldn't be a big deal that some people want to opt out of metagaming on an RPE game. They shouldn't really need a reason other "it's metagaming, and I don't like metagaming in my RP" which, I believe, is what Famine is trying to say.

And "they require cnotes to hunt you down" is really faulty reasoning. It's pretty easy to find a reason to justify just about anything. You don't even have to do it consciously. If an Inquisitor OOCly knows someone is a mage, they're going to notice all the IC clues that they wouldn't otherwise. They're going to give more weight to those clues than they would if they didn't know. That's at the most benign. At the worst, they could deliberately barge in on the suspect (using where/who to track them down) when they're casting, or something along those lines, to have a valid cnote for burning them.

Exactly, thank you! Better words than what I could explain.

[Temi]

This is a tough issue, but in the end, I don't necessarily believe in bad guys. Instead, I believe in multi faceted, fully fleshed out characters who have reasons to do bad things, but are also fully integrated into the world. This living breathing sort of villain feels so much more realistic and impactful, and expecting it has great impacts oocly. We are all a part of a community working to build great stories together, not players pitted against each other on an ooc level, trying to thwart rampant attempts at metagaming by expecting everyone to be out to get them. That is a toxic expectation, and I do worry that is the direction we have been leaning. I for one would like to try to pull back from it.

The who list has benefits. It makes people feel like there are others around who might want to play with them. It makes people feel like they are part of a community. And yes, it lets people know when someone is on grid, because it is just frustrating to look for someone you can't find for ooc reasons, rather than the ic ones that should make it hard. Sure, we could make it so your body sticks around when you log off, but I don't think anyone wants that. I certainly don't think it would lead to rp. The who list is not an ic tool, but people being logged off is an ooc problem.

Of course whoinvis has benefits too. The element of surprise is great, and I can certainly understand the desire to shield people from oocly guessing that you did something because of who was online. But that is only a portion of roleplay. There needs to be some balance. Living in whoinvis subverts the benefits of the who list. Characters that only do things that need the protection of whoinvis would necessarily stick out even, as they aren't integrated into the world.

Now, characters who are exposed and on the run are tough, but that is not intended to be a permanent state and there are permanent solutions. And if they rarely log on to hide in their bolt hole in the swamps, then it seems fair people could sometimes hunt them then instead of all of the times they are logged off in the same location.

[Temi]

I would just like to suggest an amendment to that definition of metagaming. Obviously, I hope all systems on TI give some benefit, even the ooc ones. I think it becomes metagaming when the problem it solves or the deduction it allows is an ic one. Whether or not someone is online is an ooc problem and deduction.

[Famine]

What do you mean by "we have been leaning"? You mean in this discussion on the change or the change itself? Because I do feel that way, but in the sense that the change is leaning towards creating that toxic expectation, at least from a criminal standpoint and or from a lawful character in active pursuit of a evil doer (i.e.: getting a jump on a mage).

But I guess that's just me. I'll drop it. Don't know what to expect here in talking about it except either to adapt or die. Guess I'll just join the metagame too because it's clear, that's where we are heading.

[Kinaed]

I received an insightful report on the previous post. To paraphrase (and maintain the reporters anonymity):

The response to a pleasant and considerate staff answer of "then I'm going to start cheating too" is uncalled for and likely to devolve the thread further.

I agree. Famine, please refrain from devolving this thread further.

Staff are happy to discuss people's opinions and views, provided the discussion remains respectful to TI's rules and the community at large.

[Temi]

What do you mean by "we have been leaning"? You mean in this discussion on the change or the change itself? Because I do feel that way, but in the sense that the change is leaning towards creating that toxic expectation, at least from a criminal standpoint and or from a lawful character in active pursuit of a evil doer (i.e.: getting a jump on a mage).

I actually meant the game atmosphere as a whole seems to be leaning that direction.

[Famine]

What do you mean by "we have been leaning"? You mean in this discussion on the change or the change itself? Because I do feel that way, but in the sense that the change is leaning towards creating that toxic expectation, at least from a criminal standpoint and or from a lawful character in active pursuit of a evil doer (i.e.: getting a jump on a mage).

I actually meant the game atmosphere as a whole seems to be leaning that direction.

Unfortunately, I don't feel changes like that help thwart that away. You're just trying to steer us all towards what you or maybe what the popular opinion of the players feel is that integrated world. Me hiding on whoinvis does not cast me out from that integrated world. Just like how one mans junk is another mans treasure, I am certainly the junk to most of the RP crowd here and you're clearly trying to take out the trash.

What I'm most upset about is that you as our staff are putting so much power into our hands as players and trusting that we don't abuse that power. Similar to how my post was reporting, the only countermeasure I have now is to be like the majority and start tattle-tailing when I think metagaming is happening versus relying on the staff to implement changes that protect us as players from ourselves.

[Rothgar]

What I'm most upset about is that you as our staff are putting so much power into our hands as players and trusting that we don't abuse that power.

That is how most MUD's - and real life situations - work : mutual trust between imms and players. That is also why logging everything is so important. Don't get me wrong - while I tend not to make use of whoinvis and instead just turn off WhereRP when I don't want to be bothered, there's certainly an argument to be made for turning it back to the previous system where it just auto-switches to off when you log off. There's even an argument to be made about returning to the system of just letting people use it all the time without recourse.

Accusing the majority of the MUD of metagaming, arguing with the imms, and then going on the severe defense when anyone says anything differently isn't the argument that one should be making, however. And if you have evidence of people either metagaming or cheating, you should be reporting that to the imms. That is why I log literally everything I do on the MUD, and I highly recommend it to everyone else. The adage of "If you see something, say something," works here, as well.

[Puciek]

And the free mudlet (https://www.mudlet.org/) comes with automatic HTML logger so you can log your entire RP without having to set anything up. Easy to do, beats any metagaming accusations.

[Kinaed]

Just a general reminder that "assigning intent to other people" (For example, "You're doing this because...") is considered a personal attack by TI staff, which comes under our Antisocial Behaviour rules.

Please don't allow this post to distract from the original subject of this thread, people's views about whoinvis.