From OOC Discussion : Opening Up Southside.

[Rothgar]

Hello all! Today I brought up my own proposal at the OOC meeting, for those of you who didn't have the chance to attend, the proposal was thus :
After spending multiple unsuccessful evenings in Southside looking for RP this week, I'd like to formally propose opening up the Southside to everyone BUT Nobles and Reeves. In my mind, our current lethal flag set upon Orderites, Knights, and Gentry does not make too terribly much sense to me - Gentry, at least, I can somewhat understand, as they're rich and total nerds, but the current Orderite ban makes no sense whatsoever OOC'ly or for current lore.

I think this is a point of heated contention for some people, so I bring it before you, now, for consideration. Should, with our current pbase, we consider opening up Southside to more people? Or should we keep it the way that it currently is.

Personally, I believe that it should be changed. As-per the public Brotherhood helpfile, "Of mostly poor background, members of the Brotherhood cling powerfully to religion as a unifier, and mages are not tolerated within their ranks." This does not jive with the current setup that we have which - unless I'm very much mistaken currently doesn't allow any Orderite members. At the very least, I know that Knights are not allowed in Southside without violent, lethal mobs attacking them. I understand that Brotherhood, in theory, the wont for local autonomy may override the wont to allow Orderites in, but - and I would encourage someone to quote the associated helpfile if I'm wrong - I believe that fighting Mages whilst being formally unsanctioned by the Holy Order to do so is a sin in and of itself.
I also petition for Gentry to be allowed into Southside, though I feel markedly less strongly about this. I believe, however, that from a standpoint of encouraging more RP around the Southern half of the map, Gentry are realistically only incredibly rich Freeman, and the removal of Reeves from the equation means that if they step out of line, the Brotherhood and others are well within their rights to 'correct' them as they see fit.
As I see it, currently, roughly half the map is now locked off - beyond getting a handful of items that allow passage - to around 3/4 of the MUD. Yes, people can get the items you're talking about. Should they be forced to? Should Orderites be forced out of the South? Personally I don't believe they should. I believe that the decision for what to have done with those who choose to enter the South should lie pretty firmly with the Brotherhood members, IC'ly, who can either decide to terrorize or tantalize them. Rob them blind or let them get comfortable, see how affable the Brotherhood rule truly is. I believe that the coded restrictions should be looked to and changed in order to allow greater freedom for RP, for Brotherhood and non-Brotherhood members alike.

[Voxumo]

As pointed out in the chat, Southside is open to orderites, just not knights. Furthermore you could make the same argument that multiple large segments of the map are cut off to the certain sections of the playerbase. Sewers cut off to anyone who isn't high in combat, rooftops cutoff to low dex characters, sky rooms cut off... to well anyone but mages or mage sympathizers to my knowledge, and then you have the astral.

While I get the desire to bring more rp into the southside, I would look to northside for an example of why opening up the borders won't solve anything, as people often complain about the very same thing in locations in the north, sitting around in locations for extended periods of rp and receiving no rp. I just don't think such will have the desired effect, and will instead lessen the "Intrigue" of the southside.

[LonelyNeptune]

Taking into account the Brotherhood's strong religious influence, I don't think that any Orderites should be barred from Southside. Gentry just don't belong, though.

[Taunya]

The barring of knights from Southside is a consequence of Knight PCs long ago routinely going into Southside and attacking NPCs, and it became an IC consequence that the populace of Southside turned to hate Knights. I think it's a nice bit of flavor myself, so if it's settled it should be settled ICly between the Earl Marshall and Tenebrae.

My thoughts are mixed on the rest. I'd say perhaps gentry could be let in, but subject to being pick-pocketted of silver and items, without necessarily being attacked. I agree reeves and nobles should be left to attack on sight, as they actively undermine all that Southside is about.

[Werewolf]

Isn't Southside supposed be this place where people go to hide out from the authorities because it was 'too rough'? I'd think the thieves would turn over anyone they felt shouldn't be there to the Order.

Sure, maybe laypriests can hang out there, but they'd be the Friar Tucks, not an archbishop in silk robes or a wealthy knight. They can already invade in force if they're hell bent on it, but it's not safe for individuals, and that's most of the PCs in the Order.

[Helena]

My feeling is that it is only the hazard of the current existing characters which make a place lively or not. 10 months ago, southside was lively enough to find RP and build stories there. My feeling is that with some IC efforts, freemen will easily come more often in southside.

That being said, I'd consider thematic that freemen knights were welcome in southside again, like freemen orderites are.

[Voxumo]

The barring of knights from Southside is a consequence of Knight PCs long ago routinely going into Southside and attacking NPCs, and it became an IC consequence that the populace of Southside turned to hate Knights. I think it's a nice bit of flavor myself, so if it's settled it should be settled ICly between the Earl Marshall and Tenebrae.

My thoughts are mixed on the rest. I'd say perhaps gentry could be let in, but subject to being pick-pocketted of silver and items, without necessarily being attacked. I agree reeves and nobles should be left to attack on sight, as they actively undermine all that Southside is about.

Ah yes, I forgot the era when Southside was code for "My character is so angry, better go south and rampage a bit* But I can better understand why knights are restricted upon remembering all those incidents.

[Spoops]

Taunya wrote: ↑
The barring of knights from Southside is a consequence of Knight PCs long ago routinely going into Southside and attacking NPCs, and it became an IC consequence that the populace of Southside turned to hate Knights. I think it's a nice bit of flavor myself, so if it's settled it should be settled ICly between the Earl Marshall and Tenebrae.

If I recall, the most recent offender of this is banned. Two other people who seemed to have a hand in further locking down Southside have also been banned. I'd hate to see this idea go down the drain because we're concerned about what banned players did in the past.

I think one of TI's most obvious problems is that the game is too split. Guildhalls, phomes, Southside, mage holes, all of the other things listed above. It typically leaves scant options for RP, most of which will be at a bar or random street. I'm more in favor of options that try and remedy this instead of saying "well there's x y z areas that are like this too" as that isn't going to solve any problems. I think the proposed option would be a decent solution to helping create more RP surrounding Southside, but I agree that it could also be fixed (as Helena said) with some RP efforts as well. There's just been a lack of that, I guess. As it stands, with restrictions, Southside generates next to no RP. I can't say if loosening them will be the golden solution, but I think it's better than the current trend.

[Voxumo]

The Exclusion of Knights from Southside took place well before those particular players.

However again I must ask what does loosening the borders of Southside actually change that isn't already being done in Northside, which sees the same problem of people being unable to find rp despite sitting in public locations?

[Rothgar]

Southside is open to orderites, just not knights. Furthermore you could make the same argument that multiple large segments of the map are cut off to the certain sections of the playerbase.

I didn't know that Southside was unavailable to just Knights, but I thank everyone for clarifying that for me. My personal experience was being barred from that RP. I do agree with you, though, that large segments of the map are cut off to the wider playerbase, and I think that plays in reasonably nicely to my own personal thoughts about how TI, simply not having the playerbase that it once did, should seriously consider closing down portions of the map that are just not used at all, and eliminating some of the stranger blocked off areas like the Cult of Transcendent Ecstasy chapel!

Taking into account the Brotherhood's strong religious influence, I don't think that any Orderites should be barred from Southside. Gentry just don't belong, though.

I agree that I don't feel as strongly about Gentry being allowed into Southside. The primary reason that I suggested it was that, considering our increasing amount of Gentry, I don't believe that they should be barred from Noble RP as well as Southside RP - it seems like a no-win scenario, but I could be wrong.

My thoughts are mixed on the rest. I'd say perhaps gentry could be let in, but subject to being pick-pocketted of silver and items, without necessarily being attacked. I agree reeves and nobles should be left to attack on sight, as they actively undermine all that Southside is about.

That was my initial idea, as well! I'd like to see greater influence from Brotherhood PC players, but if there absolutely has to be a coded reason that players don't go to Southside, I agree that pickpockets that auto-shift items over to the Fence would be really, really cool. I feel like it'd bump up sales of hidden pocket items, and would prevent over-cluttered inventories!

Isn't Southside supposed be this place where people go to hide out from the authorities because it was 'too rough'? I'd think the thieves would turn over anyone they felt shouldn't be there to the Order.
Sure, maybe laypriests can hang out there, but they'd be the Friar Tucks, not an archbishop in silk robes or a wealthy knight. They can already invade in force if they're hell bent on it, but it's not safe for individuals, and that's most of the PCs in the Order.

Totally agree on your second paragraph! I think it would make thematic sense for the Grand Inquisitor or the Earl Marshall to be banned from entry to Southside without a fight, but it doesn't really make sense for a Squire or a Page to be denied! I'd argue that it'd present you with a really fine opportunity to corrupt them where they're at their weakest, really!
And yes, AFAIK, Southside is supposed to be the place for people to go when on the lamb, or when just avoiding authority types altogether. It's a bit of an odd place to be, theme-wise, but because we have such a strange separation of Church and State in this game, I wholeheartedly believe that the entirety of the Order should simply be allowed into the Southside. Knights can't make arrests without Inquisitors, anyway, and it's not like they wouldn't be totally outnumbered down there. If I were a Knight on my way to Southside, I'd absolutely be on my best behavior, unless I was there for strictly business!

My feeling is that it is only the hazard of the current existing characters which make a place lively or not. 10 months ago, southside was lively enough to find RP and build stories there. My feeling is that with some IC efforts, freemen will easily come more often in southside.

I agree! I think that Southside presence is reasonably lacklustre. I can safely say that last evening, after the OOC meeting, was the most RP I've had down there since starting this character. And some of the most interesting! Southside is a super interesting and lore-rich area if you look hard enough, and it really does disappoint me that it's so truly non-utilised.

I think one of TI's most obvious problems is that the game is too split. Guildhalls, phomes, Southside, mage holes, all of the other things listed above. It typically leaves scant options for RP, most of which will be at a bar or random street. I'm more in favor of options that try and remedy this instead of saying "well there's x y z areas that are like this too" as that isn't going to solve any problems. I think the proposed option would be a decent solution to helping create more RP surrounding Southside, but I agree that it could also be fixed (as Helena said) with some RP efforts as well. There's just been a lack of that, I guess. As it stands, with restrictions, Southside generates next to no RP. I can't say if loosening them will be the golden solution, but I think it's better than the current trend.

Absolutely agree with you on the splitting of the game! While there are some things in there that I don't personally agree with - like the mention of guildhalls and phomes - I do think that it's a really potent thing to consider. Are there simply too many private areas of the MUD? With our current playercount, should we seriously consider shrinking the map? And if we do that, will unlawfuls suffer for lack of places to hide? I don't know the answers! I'm really pleased that we're able to talk about it, though.
I think that you and Helena do bring up a good point of being the change that we'd like to see, as well. Personally I do spend a lot of time Northside, simply because there's more RP up that way, but perhaps I'll start scheduling times where I'm devoted to the South, if only to help promote RP that I'd like to see down there.

However again I must ask what does loosening the borders of Southside actually change that isn't already being done in Northside, which sees the same problem of people being unable to find rp despite sitting in public locations?

The problem is that Southside isn't Northside, no matter how you slice it. Southside can be SUPER beneficial to new players. Things like cheaper food items for more MV (especially with our Infrastructure), cheaper combat trainers, cheaper phomes, cheaper RP items like booze and cloaks, a thriving black market and a fence for it, various different cheaply available drugs, and many, many free opportunities to train up things like blacksmithing, leatherworking, and other normally blocked off and rarely RP'd skills.
I genuinely believe that Southside is superior to Northside in terms of RP - a training area, if you will. I believe that Southside is where most people should start our their RP careers, especially if they're new. Down in the South, the Brotherhood and other RP partners have a much, much wider array of RP tools to choose from to guide them in so many ways towards good RP. And, when players have a good handle on theme and politics of TI:L, they can move Northside, and RP with Gentry, and Nobles, and try themselves one day to be Gentry and Nobles themselves, getting into politics and player-run stores and the like.
The current problem, in my own view, is that instead of a rich RP environment where the newbies and lowbies hang out to talk about theme and how it makes sense, or doesn't, we have a zero RP environment. It's unfortunate, but there's simply nothing going on in Southside. I can count on one hand the amount of people that I've met during my time in Southside, and I've had an absolute blast with them, being able to say whatever I want in those bars without the fear of VNPC Reeves coming to arrest me. I have a great love for Southside RP, and this thread was born out of the wont to see it succeed. I hope that others feel the same way, and have a wont to breathe life back into Southside with me, so that we can begin fostering a more welcoming and engaging environment on TI for new players and characters.