The Stranglehold of the Holy Order

[DeadHandsome]

As a new player who made a character for the first time with the Order I have to say one major thing. A MAJOR thing. That stands in the way of a larger and more prevalent Order presence.

When any character in the Order during the four IRL MONTHS that it takes to make your rank does ANYTHING at all in the game you have DOZENS of characters writing letters to guildleaders demanding their punishment as though they are auditioning to be the Grand Inquisitor. In a lot of cases this would turn a lot of people immediately off of trying to be in the Order at all.

Its exhausting. Unwelcoming. And generally effectively destroys MONTHS of a character concept to do it that way. I don't know how hard it is to get somewhere in the other Guilds. But I sincerely doubt it's as hard or as taxing on the player as well as the character as it is to be in the Order.

[Voxumo]

It seems like the amount of time it takes to be promoted is a recurring theme among responses, so perhaps that is something worth considering?

[Taunya]

It seems like the amount of time it takes to be promoted is a recurring theme among responses, so perhaps that is something worth considering?

That's the case in most guilds, really. With the recent addition of reminders, I'm hoping that will improve somewhat.

[DeadHandsome]

The amount of time is not really the heart of the problem. I don't think in other guilds your RP outside of guild stuff is constantly being measured against player and character views of Davite morality in the grand public scale the way the Order is.

[Solipsis]

The amount of time is not really the heart of the problem. I don't think in other guilds your RP outside of guild stuff is constantly being measured against player and character views of Davite morality in the grand public scale the way the Order is.

If you're going to be a moral guide to the city, it helps to be seen as one. If I were going to pick people to promote to Priest, it would be ones deserving and suited to the task, not ones that draw controversy to them. Pages/Squires are often the butts of jokes, judgment, and the public eye. I recall recently some bards that drew a lot of gossip due to some (perceived?) scandal following them about. I've got examples of bards and pages that progressed with little drama too.

Public opinion absolutely matters with some GLs. It ought to with most.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

As a new player who made a character for the first time with the Order I have to say one major thing. A MAJOR thing. That stands in the way of a larger and more prevalent Order presence.

When any character in the Order during the four IRL MONTHS that it takes to make your rank does ANYTHING at all in the game you have DOZENS of characters writing letters to guildleaders demanding their punishment as though they are auditioning to be the Grand Inquisitor. In a lot of cases this would turn a lot of people immediately off of trying to be in the Order at all.

Its exhausting. Unwelcoming. And generally effectively destroys MONTHS of a character concept to do it that way. I don't know how hard it is to get somewhere in the other Guilds. But I sincerely doubt it's as hard or as taxing on the player as well as the character as it is to be in the Order.

While I can only speak of the Clergy side of things, I can say there is no hard time-constraint to going from Acolyte to Priest. I understand that the Knight side is a bit different, but the Knights have little to no impact on the measure of what was being discussed in this thread, re: davite oppressiveness not being "felt" by a lot of the population.

[DeadHandsome]

I certainly do not think that public opinion should matter as much to GLs. Especially regarding new players/characters who are trying to get a depth of the game and stand to lose months of actual RL time invested in it to the whim of the public/players who wouldn't touch the Order with a ten foot pole with one of their own characters.

Ammended to add, "Courting Controvesy" is what we're doing here. If we're NOT counting controversy we're not advancing any kind of plot. In fact, the theme DICTATES that we confront one another in an IC format. An Orderite who does not do anything is what the general public wants. And that's the problem.

[Helena]

> No good Davite admits to being a mage and then doesn't turn themselves in to the Inquisition.

Well, that kind of sentence is an inquisitorial interpretation of the lore. There are other valid interpretations:
- though the mage is a good davite, and knows not being pyred will make him become a demon, his will is not strong enough to go to suicide. He may blame himself and seek penance constantly for that, but never find the strength to actually declare himself to the inquisition. He is a sinner, not a heretic.
- And his priest, remembering the Erra says that a penance cleanse "when the penance is accepted and undergone with an open heart", knows that as long as he does not desire the pyre, he will not reach the Fountis. In his desire to save his soul, he protects him from the inquisition to give him the time to desire the pyre, and does his best, during his confessions to convince him.

What I mean with that example is that the inquisitorial interpretation of the Lore is not an OOC truth. It is an IC point of view strengthen by the IC power of the inquisition. By considering it as an OOC truth, we are collectively limititating RP opportunities. I am feeling that is a kind of excess of the IC power of the inquisition on the OOC level, and I think it's not good for the game. That's why I am asking for a more strict usage of the term Heresy: sinners are not heretics. Believing in the Erra, but failing to obey it is not heresy, it's a sin. Heretic are those who don't believe in the Erra.

[Kinaed]

Generally speaking, when the Cardinal is contacted, the Cardinal stands with a Grand Inquisitor with a high support barometer and frequently with a low barometer as well. When the Cardinal is contacted, he generally acts as a theme enforcer/reminder. GIs don't generally get issues with the Cardinal until staff see multiple contacts about the same issues or if the issues are deemed to be counter to established theme (and therefore of gamewide interest in the Cardinal aligning theme). Even those messages tend to be mild "reminders" of what is thematic.

I don't feel the case is made that the Cardinal is actually a problem or the problem; I gather the Cardinal has clearly irritated some people who think the GI should have had free reign in the situations where the Cardinal was involved. However, there's just too utter few instances of Cardinal intervention to be the source of anything systemic. The Cardinal has maybe spoken up on something as frequently as 4 times in the last two OOC years, and has only once actually removed a GI in 15 OOC years.

The Cardinal has nothing to do with seeking or retention rates, timely promotion, or whether or not the Order on the whole backs one another in day-to-day RP when, to use an aforementioned example, someone gets upset and a dozen letters go to the GL. Other complaints I've heard are also low interest in delegation or involving lower members in RP, or just low interaction from GLs to other guild members. NOTE: these don't all apply to the current Order, they're just types of things I've heard over time, and some of them apply to guilds across the board.

I do hope that promotion reminders help. I'm glad to hear someone thinks they may.

I find it interesting that at least one person chimed in with "Actually, I DO find the Order scary powerful and oppressive." Do other people feel that way?

I also find it interesting, but am not sure to what degree, the parallel between multiple people going to the Cardinal on the GI and multiple people going to a GL on a lower ranking guild member. And, related, the associated question of when unity should be a given... and when politics or situational context should trump unity.

Finally, I generally view the mild ambiguity and ability to interpret lore as a game strength. Things that are black and white don't have the same potential for situational interpretation, which means less politics, etc.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

> No good Davite admits to being a mage and then doesn't turn themselves in to the Inquisition.

Well, that kind of sentence is an inquisitorial interpretation of the lore. There are other valid interpretations:
- though the mage is a good davite, and knows not being pyred will make him become a demon, his will is not strong enough to go to suicide. He may blame himself and seek penance constantly for that, but never find the strength to actually declare himself to the inquisition. He is a sinner, not a heretic.
- And his priest, remembering the Erra says that a penance cleanse "when the penance is accepted and undergone with an open heart", knows that as long as he does not desire the pyre, he will not reach the Fountis. In his desire to save his soul, he protects him from the inquisition to give him the time to desire the pyre, and does his best, during his confessions to convince him.

What I mean with that example is that the inquisitorial interpretation of the Lore is not an OOC truth. It is an IC point of view strengthen by the IC power of the inquisition. By considering it as an OOC truth, we are collectively limititating RP opportunities. I am feeling that is a kind of excess of the IC power of the inquisition on the OOC level, and I think it's not good for the game. That's why I am asking for a more strict usage of the term Heresy: sinners are not heretics. Believing in the Erra, but failing to obey it is not heresy, it's a sin. Heretic are those who don't believe in the Erra.

The only penance a Priest would give to a Mage is a Penance by Fire; a priest who applied any other penance would be breaking Davism and subject to Review themselves if word was found out. Players can choose to interpret that ICly as they wish, of course, but lore is crystal clear on that topic and a priest who advocates a dissension from this invites repurcussion. Also, a Davite who doesn't accept Penance with an open heart would invite a visit from the Inquisition, as (1) all members of the Kingdom are expected to be good Davites and (2) all good Davites would accept any penance that a Priest or Inquisitor gave them unless it clearly went against Davite Teachings (at which point the Good Davite would report the indiscretion up the chain of command).