So... Mudsex... the hot topic.
So, I would like to discuss it's place in game and a possible adjustment to the current policy. I view Mudsex as a unique part of TI:L and one that can be used to enhance RP. I do not think mudsex should ever dominate anyone's RP, but as a piece to a larger story arch, I think it has it's place. And for a lot of people, it is fun, exciting, and unique.
Current policy says that nothing should be done or said that a 12 year old should not see or hear. NOTHING in TI:L is appropiate for a 12 year old in my mind, and so this policy is a bit ridiculus. I'm allowed to torture and beat people into a bloody mess as an inquisitor, but a sex scene is out of question?
I am a strong fan of the Graphic Command, Fade to Black, and consensual mudsex. In my own practice, I believe as long as the two players are consenting and agree on whatever amount of graphic material they wish to have, game on.
I realize there are legal issues gallore, not to mention moral issues and what not. I believe that TI:L has made a good practice of leaving the RP and game to the players, trusting them to flush things out. I'd like to see that applied in this case.
If an age disclaimer is needed in game, I'm for that. I picture that vast majority of our players over 18, if not in their 20s. I've no problem with the game saying you need to be mature to play, 17+ or something. (Granted I started MUDing when I was 13 and TI at 14, but I wasn't hooked till 17 or so.) I honestly think the nature of the game itself discourages young players.
Anyhow, just some preliminary thoughts. I think this is very worthy of discussion, if only to be fleshed out to why the policy is set the way it is. If Mudsex is thrown out altogether it won't break my heart, but I will think it a loss.
Mudsex... Uh Oh...
Mudsex is about OOC sexual gratification, not RP. You can RP a relationship where sex is happening without ever mentioning genitalia. This commonly happens in movies with skip scenes, artistic fade-to-black, etc. I've read romance novels with a paragraph or two that makes it clear two people are hopping in the sack (though I guess softcore porn seems to be today's common standard). The point is, it's totally unnecessary, and the game is not being built to assist people with sexual gratification, even if it does have a dark theme.
Every "adult" RP game that allows mudsex has problems with people making sex an actual aim of the game. I've seen on several games where two people lock themselves in a room with one or two partners for a week to jerk off until boredom makes them come out. This is not at all good for the game's overall RP quality or storyline.
Those of us who want to RP that our characters have loving relationships, but are OOCly married, gender bending, or whatever it is that might make us uncomfortable RPing that In Character are at a firm disadvantage both physically and psychologically to be able to play those characters on a game where Mudsex is standardly open. It feels expected by other players, and you develop a fear of engaging in these relationships.
And, as mentioned, there are legal ramifications and so on. We cannot keep children off the game even if we wanted to. I think disclaimer messages about age just make the game more intriguing for kids to play, really, and like it or not - violence *is* more socially acceptable than sex in Western culture. It's just a fact, even if a sad one, and TI isn't about pioneering cultural change.
If a player actually really needs to do the mudsex thing, they can do it off the game in IM, MSN, etc, where they are solely responsible for the results of what's going on, from encountering minors to pissing off their spouses, to harassment claims, stalking, and whatever else might go on.
And, finally, on a personal level, I know some of TI's players and partners IRL. Some I don't know, but I do know enough about their lives to know they have significant others. It deeply bothers me to think they're engaging in netsex behind their partners back. It's not my business, no, but it does bother me because I am put in the moral dilemma of wondering if I have a friendship obligation to tell one or the other, if I should keep my mouth shut, and if I make the wrong choice in that regard, will I lose one of my friends if the shit hits the fan? I don't want to think about that sort of thing. That's who one of your implementors is, and she doesn't want to run the game if it makes her unhappy.
The policy is not about players being mature, or thinking they are too immature. I also don't see our policy stopping players from RPing anything they please, it's just requesting it remain tasteful, and tasteful to us is the 12 year old viewing standard.
Every "adult" RP game that allows mudsex has problems with people making sex an actual aim of the game. I've seen on several games where two people lock themselves in a room with one or two partners for a week to jerk off until boredom makes them come out. This is not at all good for the game's overall RP quality or storyline.
Those of us who want to RP that our characters have loving relationships, but are OOCly married, gender bending, or whatever it is that might make us uncomfortable RPing that In Character are at a firm disadvantage both physically and psychologically to be able to play those characters on a game where Mudsex is standardly open. It feels expected by other players, and you develop a fear of engaging in these relationships.
And, as mentioned, there are legal ramifications and so on. We cannot keep children off the game even if we wanted to. I think disclaimer messages about age just make the game more intriguing for kids to play, really, and like it or not - violence *is* more socially acceptable than sex in Western culture. It's just a fact, even if a sad one, and TI isn't about pioneering cultural change.
If a player actually really needs to do the mudsex thing, they can do it off the game in IM, MSN, etc, where they are solely responsible for the results of what's going on, from encountering minors to pissing off their spouses, to harassment claims, stalking, and whatever else might go on.
And, finally, on a personal level, I know some of TI's players and partners IRL. Some I don't know, but I do know enough about their lives to know they have significant others. It deeply bothers me to think they're engaging in netsex behind their partners back. It's not my business, no, but it does bother me because I am put in the moral dilemma of wondering if I have a friendship obligation to tell one or the other, if I should keep my mouth shut, and if I make the wrong choice in that regard, will I lose one of my friends if the shit hits the fan? I don't want to think about that sort of thing. That's who one of your implementors is, and she doesn't want to run the game if it makes her unhappy.
The policy is not about players being mature, or thinking they are too immature. I also don't see our policy stopping players from RPing anything they please, it's just requesting it remain tasteful, and tasteful to us is the 12 year old viewing standard.
I can certainly appreciate most or your points. And if that's the way the Imms feel, then Mudsex should be removed and not 'half' allowed. I disagree with your assumption that Mudsex is only about sexual gratification. That's like saying a RP game is only about escapism. I agree that it is not 'required' to play a loving relationship online howver if players should choose to do so, why should they be barred from such? If it's a legal issue, then as with what I said earlier, clearly state such in the policy and remove mudsex period.
It sounds to me, that with your convinctions on the issue at least, that the best solution for the game is it's removal.
It sounds to me, that with your convinctions on the issue at least, that the best solution for the game is it's removal.
Just to weigh in on this as well. I'll come out and say that I like the policy as it is for a variety of reasons.
1) For me, allowing graphic sex would dilute the themes of TI to a degree. As it is currently, there is no reason that people can't have sex in their RP, as I don't personally see what describing it in detail adds. Personally, I find it much more interesting for in-game sex to be played down. Stories around sex, or coming from it are great- the actual act isn't something I have an interest in RPing, personally.
2) I've been a staff member on a previous version of TI wherein we had a trial period of allowing mudsex. It certainly became ridiculous to the point of some people seeming to do little but have sex all the time. In that circumstance, it was becoming a game that I didn't want to staff on, and to be honest, wouldn't have had much interest in being a player on, either. (The rule was revised back, I think to our current standard, after that experiment.)
3) Lastly, I'm well above the curve with regards to player ages. However, I do have young children. It would be a concern for me in the future, as they start to read, for them to be reading graphic sexual descriptions over my shoulder. Or rather, to find it in a log or history, since I'd have enough sense not to do it around them directly. I know that I choose, personally, what I get involved in, but there is always the possibility of stumbling into something I'd rather not in game.
Thanks for reading,
-Charm.
1) For me, allowing graphic sex would dilute the themes of TI to a degree. As it is currently, there is no reason that people can't have sex in their RP, as I don't personally see what describing it in detail adds. Personally, I find it much more interesting for in-game sex to be played down. Stories around sex, or coming from it are great- the actual act isn't something I have an interest in RPing, personally.
2) I've been a staff member on a previous version of TI wherein we had a trial period of allowing mudsex. It certainly became ridiculous to the point of some people seeming to do little but have sex all the time. In that circumstance, it was becoming a game that I didn't want to staff on, and to be honest, wouldn't have had much interest in being a player on, either. (The rule was revised back, I think to our current standard, after that experiment.)
3) Lastly, I'm well above the curve with regards to player ages. However, I do have young children. It would be a concern for me in the future, as they start to read, for them to be reading graphic sexual descriptions over my shoulder. Or rather, to find it in a log or history, since I'd have enough sense not to do it around them directly. I know that I choose, personally, what I get involved in, but there is always the possibility of stumbling into something I'd rather not in game.
Thanks for reading,
-Charm.
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registerednuisance
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:47 pm
I can appreciate almost all of Kinaed's points. I think it might be a little bit easier to clarify what constitues mudsex and what doesn't by calling a limit on bases. First base is no big deal, but second base and you need to think about fading to black? Third base+ prohibited at least in-game?
I totally agree with Registered. A extremely specific and explicit policy on it would be appreciated, at least for me. Even if it is a Base thing like she had. The 12 year old thing is vague and not very good for a rule, at least for me to understand.
I agree that some more classification & definintion would be good, especially since we have players of different countries, upbringings and cultures where what is 'acceptable' for a 12 year old may differ. With regards to the bases, I've been given to understand that what constitutes the various bases has changed since I was young.
Anyway, what I'm getting at, basically, is agreeing that it would be good for everyone to know exactly which page we're on.
Anyway, what I'm getting at, basically, is agreeing that it would be good for everyone to know exactly which page we're on.
My two cents....most 12 year olds know more about it than we do....>.>...lol
No, on the real note though. I have had a few alts engage in this already where....it was obvious that was happening with only the visual concept of a....ok i will just say it. A breast or boob or whatever you wanna call it being shown. Was not anything graphic to the extent of visual porn. I do not think that should really be allowed. But lets be mindful of also todays 12 year olds, where they know just as much, if not more than we do with all of the exploration of the younger era and such.
As we all can RP, as we have all proven, im quite certain we can RP a sex scene without it becoming an XXX event.
As far as sexual gratification, thats kind of borderline, and perhaps its just simply an opinion of mine. I wont lie, i try and make the receiver of any actions dealing with this literally imagine it and feel like they may be there receiving it themselves, but it is not for my own "gratification" just playing out a part dealing with the Character in game.
So, in conclusion, I feel MUDSEX should be a part of it, but not centered, obviously. If you are "role-playing" that scenerio, that means you are acting in the manner you would if you were actually physically there. And once again, does not have to be a XXX scene, nothing too graphic where you WANT to use it as some gratification to your own sex-life......but something a little sensual or exotic here or there, showing alittle skin per say, i see no harm in that.
No, on the real note though. I have had a few alts engage in this already where....it was obvious that was happening with only the visual concept of a....ok i will just say it. A breast or boob or whatever you wanna call it being shown. Was not anything graphic to the extent of visual porn. I do not think that should really be allowed. But lets be mindful of also todays 12 year olds, where they know just as much, if not more than we do with all of the exploration of the younger era and such.
As we all can RP, as we have all proven, im quite certain we can RP a sex scene without it becoming an XXX event.
As far as sexual gratification, thats kind of borderline, and perhaps its just simply an opinion of mine. I wont lie, i try and make the receiver of any actions dealing with this literally imagine it and feel like they may be there receiving it themselves, but it is not for my own "gratification" just playing out a part dealing with the Character in game.
So, in conclusion, I feel MUDSEX should be a part of it, but not centered, obviously. If you are "role-playing" that scenerio, that means you are acting in the manner you would if you were actually physically there. And once again, does not have to be a XXX scene, nothing too graphic where you WANT to use it as some gratification to your own sex-life......but something a little sensual or exotic here or there, showing alittle skin per say, i see no harm in that.
Food for thought here, from someone who likes the current policy:
It's a lot more difficult and intriguing to RP a scene where sex (or something soon to be sex) is involved while still trying to progress the story, continue the dialogue, and vary word choice in emotes. As someone who gets damned tired of emoting kissing scenes unless something else is happening, I can't really understand what adding genitalia to the scene is going to add.
There are ways of wording things (challenging ways too, which actually make emoting more difficult-- and fun, if you like that sort of thing like I do) that implicate sexual activity without describing what's going on. Think any primetime TV show where you have things going on beneath the sheets; there's really no need to peel back the fabric, as we all know what's going on there.
My general rule is to keep it PG-13, and if you run out of things to say with actual dialogue, end the scene.
It's a lot more difficult and intriguing to RP a scene where sex (or something soon to be sex) is involved while still trying to progress the story, continue the dialogue, and vary word choice in emotes. As someone who gets damned tired of emoting kissing scenes unless something else is happening, I can't really understand what adding genitalia to the scene is going to add.
There are ways of wording things (challenging ways too, which actually make emoting more difficult-- and fun, if you like that sort of thing like I do) that implicate sexual activity without describing what's going on. Think any primetime TV show where you have things going on beneath the sheets; there's really no need to peel back the fabric, as we all know what's going on there.
My general rule is to keep it PG-13, and if you run out of things to say with actual dialogue, end the scene.
I'm glad most people are okay with the current rules.
I have seen some requests for explicit definition of mudsex in this thread. Can anyone tell me what in particular should be in that help file? I don't want to do a list of acts:
Is the 12 year old viewing thing that bad? Maybe 6 year olds are still considered innocent enough to plug in there?
I have seen some requests for explicit definition of mudsex in this thread. Can anyone tell me what in particular should be in that help file? I don't want to do a list of acts:
Code: Select all
Kissing Okay
French Kissing Okay
Coping a feel Gray area
Genitalia Nooooooooo!-
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