Civetta's post in 06/13/2020 / Header Plot Experiences And Issues

[Satoshi]

Hi guys, I think that everyone is piling a lot on staff about this issue. There are a lot of negative feelings about the plot. There are a lot of hurt feelings. There's chafing on both side. There's a lot of complaints IN the initial post and it's all a big tangle.

But! Please keep in mind that Staff are only people--they are four single people who are dealing with this. Please be polite and try not to be abrasive. I think, no matter what the players intend, that the continued flood is piling onto staff in a way that is not constructive. This has made us upset, clearly. There is a problem. But we need to make this something that staff can easily engage with. No one likes having something they are freely giving their time to, volunteering to assist us, the players, turn into an attack on them. Whether we, the players, have meant to or not, this is the result: Staff is being dogpiled, and we need to let them breathe, and be able to concisely and calmly give them issues that we can, together, get a solution for.

intended or not, the wording does come across as deprecating to Staff,.

Even Kinaed herself has said it. Please remember guys, Staff is working to do their jobs for us. They made this game, that we all play and enjoy, what it is, and they are doing something, they are trying, even if there are bumps. This could be another dead game where staff has abandoned it and nothing happens. Please try to word things neutrally, or if you do have a criticism, word it in a way that can be answered, rather than just an accusation

I do not think that it is abusive to cite situations.

I think that citing specific situations where, to my understand, there was a lot of player negativity towards staff will bring up unnecessary bad feelings and bog down the discussion needlessly. While the circumstance without the OOC negativity may suit the argument, it carried with it all the bad feelings it originally had.

I think Murrmurs has very good points.

• Character's impacts against the header plot over the last months have ranged from impotent to actively counter-productive.
• Players who are not in a powerful role feel both that the plot is inaccessible and opaque.
• That there may be a win-lose trade off, but they are only ever seeing the lose-lose end of it and are getting tired.

Through all discussions, these seem to be the three main things that come up over and over again. These are the things I believe we should be working on, and what should be taking staff's time and attention. Not just the frustration--yes we are frustrated but we can also help this, and we can help staff.

As a suggestion to the plot, I feel like a lot of impotency around the plot itself stems from the recurring character Roland. Whether intentionally or not, he appears to have 'plot armor', and this has gone unacknowledged. Now, does that mean that staff NEEDS to part the curtain completely and show us every single roll? No, and that's totally immersion breaking. But I feel the 'carrot with a stick' analogy being 'mostly stick' shines very much here. It has been IRL years and he has survived everything thrown at him. If a player survived all of that--assassins, rogue knights, being exiled, being excommunicated--I would accuse them of cheating or of being a witch or both. Nonwithstanding that if it had happened on-grid that character would be unplayable.

A suggestion I will make, so that this is not just pointing fingers, is that perhaps Roland should suffer the consequences that have landed him so many powerful PC enemies. Roland does not need to be alive for the schism plot to continue, and other NPCs can take up his mantle--Roland is not this revolution, but he IS the figurehead and players feel like they can't touch him.

[Zeita]

I'm disconnected from recent happenings, but do want to pause to point out that starting with emotive language like 'falling on your sword' and continuing to talk about erasure from history and the like are not a way to begin a rational, constructive conversation.

[AlwaysShunny]

What are the details? Why do players' concentrated efforts to change the course of this plot continue to fail? Is it really just bad rolls?

Just some transparency, please.

[Temi]

First of all, I'd like to apologize to anyone who hasn't felt effectual. That's not the intent, and from my perspective, the things players have done have totally shaped the outcomes, and I expect big effects still to come, which I do not know what they will be. Though I hope it is not just tamping things down and back to the status quo.

First, some context on how I am thinking about ideal plot advances for these sort of big things. 1) I like to see interaction between multiple players happening on grid. 2) It acknowledges that there are downsides and tradeoffs to any solution, and makes a clear step forwards in one direction despite those, rather than looking for an option which does not have any. There's no silver bullets and no right answers. There's nothing I'm trying to get players to do or any favored option on my behalf. But something's got to give - that's the nature of politics. There's compromises, winners and losers.

When we first introduced the plot of Roland versus Caitrin, we didn't really know which way things would go, or have any attachment to one legacy or the other winning out. We set it up so that both had a fair amount of support across the different domains, incorporating specific histories that would make them lean one way or another, with no specific value judgment of one being good or bad. Based on that first plot, we kept track of the effects and the numbers that described which way people leaned and the effects of player actions. It quickly became clear that the players supported the Samael dynasty, but staff continued to maintain the validity of both options, and we have consistently added the view of the group of NPCs that support Roland's side of things. We have perhaps leaned more heavily that direction, because we know players are handling the other direction, and it adds more drama to pump up the opposition. I do feel like a lot of players don't see it possible that reasonable people still support Roland, but I think it is important for staff to help uphold that. The capital is clearly Amir's now, but the conflict is not done. I hope some people enjoy engaging with that.

For the recent excommunication, I certainly feel like this is a big action! And the assumption goes along with it that a lot of people are onboard and support the Order and are turned against Roland. I am sorry if I did not explicitly state that part. Again, we are focusing on the counterbalance that adds the drama. I do think it would have been anti-climactic if we had just said "Okay, well, Roland's been excommunicated now, so we'll just give up on him and turn him away, and everything goes back to normal." Vandago has too much invested to just rollover on it. As for the neutrality of the others? I did not mean for that to be an inability to get them involved, but more a political neutrality looking for the benefit for themselves. A number of things that could win them over either direction are out there, but I haven't seen any actions taken which commit to anything, besides of course the excommunication. Possibilities will have downsides, but as I mentioned earlier, that's part of my view of how things should work.

[Eldar]

I'd like to echo galaxgal here. What's done is done and what the focus of this discussion needs to be is how do we move forward here. There's no point dwelling on the past except as yina said where it helps to draw a parallel or use as an example

1). As a non-powerful role player I definitely feel that the current plot often feels inaccessible and opaque. While progress has been made to 'lifting the veil' in regards to the new historian role (thank you staff!), it's early days yet so it's hard to judge the affect there.

2). My understanding is that plot responses that are neutral or more inconclusive are essentially dead ends and this feels very demoralizing as a player trying to work through the plot system given the effort, work, and resources which is often required.

3). Players do not feel heard over some issues. I would first like to say that by and large the staff-player communication for TI is generally outstanding. Unfortunately I do feel that somewhere something broke over *this specific topic*, which is why we are here now.

Feedback.

1). Give players a way forward with 'neutral' plots (where appropriate). To use the example listed above with Theodora. While there may not be an 'in' with the Court Bard of Vandago perhaps in the process courier might instead return with news of a dissatisfied apprentice, or member of the court. While this does not directly assist the player in gaining their goals it offers them a method to move forward. A 'loose thread' to tug at, and provides for continuing potentially meaningful RP. This helps avoid the feelsbad scenario which I've heard echoed to me several times. Plots and resources are invested for what is essentially just 'nothing happens'. This leads to players being less willing to invest in the system which then leads to more of those events and so on and so forth.I would also like to point out that this is something which players could do as well on their own initiative assuming staff is amenable to it in general.



With the greatest respect to all, players and staff.

Edit: This was written while Temi was posting and i've made some changes in light of that

[plague]

intended or not, the wording does come across as deprecating to Staff,.

Even Kinaed herself has said it. Please remember guys, Staff is working to do their jobs for us. They made this game, that we all play and enjoy, what it is, and they are doing something, they are trying, even if there are bumps. This could be another dead game where staff has abandoned it and nothing happens. Please try to word things neutrally, or if you do have a criticism, word it in a way that can be answered, rather than just an accusation

I do not think that it is abusive to cite situations.

I think that citing specific situations where, to my understand, there was a lot of player negativity towards staff will bring up unnecessary bad feelings and bog down the discussion needlessly. While the circumstance without the OOC negativity may suit the argument, it carried with it all the bad feelings it originally had.

I am generally of the opinion that it is much more conducive for people to express their opinions respectfully; however, I do not feel that anything which has been expressed here has been with an intention of disrespect. This really is something that has a lot of players upset, and has had a lot of players upset for a really long while. Players who have complaints beating around the bush and treating certain people as anathema who are never to be talked about again lest their long, well-formulated arguments be widely brushed as "player attacking staff" comes across to me as actively detrimental to the conversation.

What we're seeing is players who put a lot of time and effort into helping make this world - perhaps not in the same way as staff, but alongside staff, certainly - feeling like those efforts are not attaining satisfactory response. While staff are volunteers (and I understand and empathize wholeheartedly with staff being frustrated or overworked; I have staff experience in high and low positions on a few RP games, myself), players are volunteers too, and so are GLs, the Seneschal, the Council at large, and every player down to the "lowest of the low." There are dozens of people who are working very hard to attempt to move things toward something that is satisfactory and enjoyable for everyone.

Staff and players alike have the same goal, ideally. I appreciate staff very much, and all of my interactions with staff have been positive, but I think that it is a bit insensitive to the players who have dumped just as much time collectively into building this game, though, for their honest and sincere frustrations, to place players in a position where if they happen to mention someone who acted in an insensitive manner toward staff in the past, their frustrations are at risk of being invalidated wholesale, when their intent is to create fun stories just like everyone else.

"A reminder of the OOC Chat Pact: Regardless of what we discuss, we understand and truly believe that everyone on TI does the best they can, given what they know at the time, their skills and abilities, the resources available, and the situation at hand. We will be respectful of this and each other at all times."

For me, this pact involves a default assumption of good intent. I think that assuming good intent on the parts of those speaking up is the most beneficial way in which we can discuss things without fear that our opinions will be invalidated based upon accidental mischaracterization.

I think that Temi's most recent post is emblematic of that assumption of good intent, and I appreciate it wholeheartedly as well. It was posted while I was writing this, and this is rather long, so I think it best to at least address: it is very possible that a lot of the issue might be miscommunication and "sensory feedback", on one side or the other. It may very well be not about the content of what is occurring, but the way in which it is phrased and interpreted. Especially in the context of people feeling like complaining about it will be construed as an attack on staff, it is very important that everyone who is not enjoying it expresses how they feel, because a disconnect between staff intent, player intent, and the general feeling on each side may be central to resolution of the issue - which is not just perceived, but which is definitely at least partially about perspective. I appreciate the staff perspective on how things have come to be how they are, and the staff intent in the recent IC posts.

With that in mind, in direct response to the most recent IC Events post:

I felt that there was no expression of player action resulting in any opposition to Roland. Seeing Amir and Roland together in the same line as "would-be kings" when one is *actively ruling*, and seeing support expressed by Vandago, with statements of neutrality at best from others (which did come across as politically conservative as intended, mind you), did not line up with the (assumedly true) assumption that most would honor the excommunication, came across as the two of them being on relatively equal ground, and with Roland perhaps even having the advantage. It came across as uncertain, definitely, and I was glad to see it advance, but it may have been "imbalanced" in terms of how it was intended to be perceived. It comes across from Temi's most recent post, though, that this was to some extent a miscommunication, and some support for Amir (and the Lithmorran 'branch' of the Order - more a root, really) was assumed to be so obvious that it need not be stated. It is precisely because of that expectation that there would be some support for the excommunication that, I think, people were misled or disgruntled by it.

[Kinaed]

I'm going to admit something that makes me very uncomfortable - this post actually made me cry. I don't think it's appropriate for my volunteering my time to others to make me feel this way.

The initial type of post is just not the way to get through to anyone, so of course we're not going to listen to it. If a person raises things in a manner that is intrinsically offensive, it muddies the ability to take any real issues inside the post seriously without validating people indulging themselves by being jerks.

Because this thread is exhausting and just making me dislike certain people:

1) I stopped reading this post because I think it is doing more harm than good for me to continue reading. To the people who had good, sane commentary - thank you. I am sorry to ask, but can you please extract those items and start a new thread? The sane descriptions of the problem, sans the rhetoric.

2) To the people insistant on rhetoric like "I'm falling on my sword" or painting certain people and heros or others as failures, etc. Grow up. If you don't like the game, my staff, your fellow players, whatever, you are fully empowered to pull up your pants and leave. Staff will resolve issues as we can, but we don't owe anyone anything more than general human decency and politeness. At a minimum, please return the same.

I'm inclined to shut down the plot system. If players don't get what they want, the way they want it, Staff are biased, doing a bad job, etc. CONSTANTLY. It seems to be completely beyond the ability of certain players to understand that their point of view is not necessarily the point of view of every other player engaging in the plot system.

This is not a D&D campaign where everyone is on the same team. The plot system doesn't exist so people can "pay for their outcomes with QP". It's a massive system that tries to process conflicting player interests as neutrally as we can to the effect of a "good story". And it seems it's dissatisfying to everyone, especially me at the moment because I have better things to do that cry my Sunday away.

[Murrmurs]

(sic)
The initial type of post is just not the way to get through to anyone, so of course we're not going to listen to it. If a person raises things in a manner that is intrinsically offensive, it muddies the ability to take any real issues inside the post seriously without validating people indulging themselves by being jerks.

Because this thread is exhausting and just making me dislike certain people:

1) I stopped reading this post because I think it is doing more harm than good for me to continue reading. To the people who had good, sane commentary - thank you. I am sorry to ask, but can you please extract those items and start a new thread? The sane descriptions of the problem, sans the rhetoric.

2) To the people insistent on rhetoric like "I'm falling on my sword" or painting certain people and heros or others as failures, etc. Grow up. If you don't like the game, my staff, your fellow players, whatever, you are fully empowered to pull up your pants and leave. Staff will resolve issues as we can, but we don't owe anyone anything more than general human decency and politeness. At a minimum, please return the same.

I'm sorry that other's strong feelings have reflected in this manner, Kinaed. However, this type of conversation-ending reply manages to be a pointed implication at particular players that they are not sane while also putting a full stop on productive conversation around the topic by virtue alone of it being an emotionally charged and challenging subject to handle.

It reads as the same type of character attack that has upset you.

[Asteris]

I really appreciate the distillation of the actionable and useful parts of this out and the reasoned responses to the frustrations laid out. It's extremely helpful and elucidating and goes a long way to addressing frustrations.

[Myrella]

Why bang your heads against this brick wall. Nothing will change as staff have made it clear here and elsewhere that they simply won't change, and don't see a need for change. Do you need a better example than Kinaed's dismissiveness here?


I'm sure whatever prewritten climax they have for the plot will really pay off though and be worth it for everyone.