It does occur to me that the code money the legitimate guilds receive is an advantage - but does this money actually translate into a real powerful benefit? I'm curious.
I wonder if we ought to turn off guild auto-earnings. The people who have the money barely use it and don't seem to appreciate it. Most often, I see GLs embezzling from their guilds on a massive scale for their personal eq and phomes, but not only do I not see guild members receiving quite the same largesse, I don't really see the guilds themselves ICly putting their cash to plot use, which is a major reason why we give it to them. Mind, there are exceptions to this rule, but they're so rare as not to hold a candle to the amounts that are gifted out on a weekly basis or just sitting there because of, as Estelle said, failing to hit their caps.
Balance: Knights vs Mages
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Eris
I don't think that the answer is to turn off auto guild earnings, but to encourage/push people to actually use them. Turning it off just means that guilds won't have the expendable income to be able to spend in the first place.
I know in the Merchants Guild the funds have been used to purchase materials for new merchants. I know that that was really really for me starting out on Edwynn.
My understanding is that the "overt" guilds get their income as a cut of the sales to mobshops, yes? How much information is given to the GLs about how much income they've gotten from that over a given week?
My thinking is that maybe if GLs had a better idea of what their guild's income roughly is, they'd be more inclined to set/up wages for their members.
My understanding is that the "overt" guilds get their income as a cut of the sales to mobshops, yes? How much information is given to the GLs about how much income they've gotten from that over a given week?
My thinking is that maybe if GLs had a better idea of what their guild's income roughly is, they'd be more inclined to set/up wages for their members.
I'd say turn it off until (if) it becomes a problem.
I struggled as a GL to use the Order's wealth as well. I had ideas for its use (different things we could add to the game) but didn't have the time to be able to make those things myself and no one really got interested in creating any of those things. Our GL funds were so full that when we got player donations, we weren't able to put them to the guild because the account was full.
I'd say if guilds are using the money, they should keep the auto-payment. If they aren't then turn it off until such a time as they are...
I struggled as a GL to use the Order's wealth as well. I had ideas for its use (different things we could add to the game) but didn't have the time to be able to make those things myself and no one really got interested in creating any of those things. Our GL funds were so full that when we got player donations, we weren't able to put them to the guild because the account was full.
I'd say if guilds are using the money, they should keep the auto-payment. If they aren't then turn it off until such a time as they are...
Every day I've logged in since Sekunder was executed, I've asked myself the same question: "Why is the Brotherhood empty?" I've gotten some explanations from Kinaed, about previous in-game occurrences. Gavin played a smooth masterstroke and shut them down, but that's not the reason why the Brotherhood is empty. Having read over this thread cast the last OOC meeting in a new light. Really, it was this blurb that did it:
Why is the Brotherhood empty? Because established players won't take it! Established players who understand the mechanics and code recognize that the Brotherhood is boned. It's too much of an uphill battle to get anything fun going, so they do something else.
All of the arguments about how thieves and mages could wear heavy armor and learn master weapons and defense skills are fine and dandy, nevermind that such a character is a reeve or a knight, and not a thief or mage. That rebuttal is somewhat moot, because the argument already falls flat on its face in light of one simple fact: The Brotherhood is empty. Nobody wants to do it. Your prospective Brotherhood members are going to come almost exclusively from new players who don't understand they're screwed for making that decision.
I have felt this way multiple times when reading over helpfiles. This impression didn't come from talking to any other players, I got it from reading helpfiles: The community at large doesn't want the Brotherhood or the Manus to be able to meaningfully antagonize, and has gotten code set up to give the Reeves and Knights every possible advantage. Holy cow! I'm not alone in feeling this way!Geras wrote:IWhat the hell were those objections? It doesn’t bother me that some players felt it was a shift in theme that they aren’t all that comfortable with - as someone who hates it whenever zombies show up, I can fully appreciate that. In the absence of any real posts to that effect here though, I’m left assuming the worst. The worst is that a few players are so opposed to the idea of mages or thieves having anything fun and meaningful to do that they effectively vetoed it. Are those players going to veto any other meaningful changes to magic or stealth?
Why is the Brotherhood empty? Because established players won't take it! Established players who understand the mechanics and code recognize that the Brotherhood is boned. It's too much of an uphill battle to get anything fun going, so they do something else.
All of the arguments about how thieves and mages could wear heavy armor and learn master weapons and defense skills are fine and dandy, nevermind that such a character is a reeve or a knight, and not a thief or mage. That rebuttal is somewhat moot, because the argument already falls flat on its face in light of one simple fact: The Brotherhood is empty. Nobody wants to do it. Your prospective Brotherhood members are going to come almost exclusively from new players who don't understand they're screwed for making that decision.
What's the solution?
Unfortunately, the answer I tend to hear most is "give me the power to run wantonly rampant, unstoppable, whenever I want", and I think you can see why that might not fly. If you have any reasonable suggestions, please tell us as I would very much like to hear them for consideration.
I also think you're wrong on one point - other players *DO* want to see mages and thieves in play. Maybe I'm blind, but I fail to see anything saying "You are boned" in any of the help files. I boggle at this. At absolute worse, I see 'it's not easy being a criminal' - and I'm not sure it should be easy or safe to be a criminal, that kind of takes the whole "realistic" element out of RPing a criminal.
My personal view of why the thieves have no members is more of a systemic thing about the historic players of the thieves:
- Olither and Aureliane, betrayed by the Tenebrae, die for doing business with him
- The whole guild, betrayed by the Tenebrae, dies/renames/leaves to avoid dying for doing business with him
In fact, I personally have attempted to create a thief char multiple times, and each time I tried, I had trouble getting into the guild for various reasons. My alts:
- Anastaci - betrayed by the Tenebrae, did not take the next steps
- Chloe - betrayed by the Tenebrae, did not take the next steps
See a pattern?
My personal view is that the Thieves don't have numbers because they bone people who look to join them or work with them. The PCs in those roles tend to be legitimately suspicious and lack loyalty to other members in their cause, they're slow to accept new members, and when they do, they'll sell out their own guild or people trying to work with them at the drop of a hat, justifying it by saying that they're mercenary or have a friendship with whomever they chose over their "attempted business partner". No one that's been around to see their behavior trusts them as a guild. They see it as a deathtrap - but not one created by Reeves or the law, but rather built by 1) poor behavior or 2) flat ineptitude of older, long past associates.
The Manus has/had a similar reputation at various times except there's better leadership in place there, so the guild has grown and flourished, which is what I expect to see of the Thieves when a good leader is there - as it has occasionally flourished in the past under Amethyst and Tieghan (that I know of).
As for mages, right now,they're doing fine:
The pbase is divided as follows: 29% awakened, 0% latent, 14% titled.
Yes, people... approx 1in 3 of you is a big, bad, dangerous and awakened mage.
Unfortunately, the answer I tend to hear most is "give me the power to run wantonly rampant, unstoppable, whenever I want", and I think you can see why that might not fly. If you have any reasonable suggestions, please tell us as I would very much like to hear them for consideration.
I also think you're wrong on one point - other players *DO* want to see mages and thieves in play. Maybe I'm blind, but I fail to see anything saying "You are boned" in any of the help files. I boggle at this. At absolute worse, I see 'it's not easy being a criminal' - and I'm not sure it should be easy or safe to be a criminal, that kind of takes the whole "realistic" element out of RPing a criminal.
My personal view of why the thieves have no members is more of a systemic thing about the historic players of the thieves:
- Olither and Aureliane, betrayed by the Tenebrae, die for doing business with him
- The whole guild, betrayed by the Tenebrae, dies/renames/leaves to avoid dying for doing business with him
In fact, I personally have attempted to create a thief char multiple times, and each time I tried, I had trouble getting into the guild for various reasons. My alts:
- Anastaci - betrayed by the Tenebrae, did not take the next steps
- Chloe - betrayed by the Tenebrae, did not take the next steps
See a pattern?
My personal view is that the Thieves don't have numbers because they bone people who look to join them or work with them. The PCs in those roles tend to be legitimately suspicious and lack loyalty to other members in their cause, they're slow to accept new members, and when they do, they'll sell out their own guild or people trying to work with them at the drop of a hat, justifying it by saying that they're mercenary or have a friendship with whomever they chose over their "attempted business partner". No one that's been around to see their behavior trusts them as a guild. They see it as a deathtrap - but not one created by Reeves or the law, but rather built by 1) poor behavior or 2) flat ineptitude of older, long past associates.
The Manus has/had a similar reputation at various times except there's better leadership in place there, so the guild has grown and flourished, which is what I expect to see of the Thieves when a good leader is there - as it has occasionally flourished in the past under Amethyst and Tieghan (that I know of).
As for mages, right now,they're doing fine:
The pbase is divided as follows: 29% awakened, 0% latent, 14% titled.
Yes, people... approx 1in 3 of you is a big, bad, dangerous and awakened mage.
I'd be interested in seeing how mattack stacks up in combat - I believe a quest was planned to give us the chance to test it against regular combat a bit? I suspect a lot of my concerns on the overall balance of power may have been addressed with that addition.
The current situation with the Thieves is a bit different though IMHO, which I'll post about in another thread...
The current situation with the Thieves is a bit different though IMHO, which I'll post about in another thread...
Okay, then, so legitimate question to staff:
Let's say those 1/3 of the playerbase that are mages actually got organized. Let's say they started plotting and planning, to make real changes and overthrow the order and subjugate us normal law abiding davites.
I wondered this in an OSAY to someone in a room once, and they said to me, "The staff would never let that big a change to the theme take place." So I forgot about it.
But then I got to think about it... why would then never allow it? If it was RPed well, if it were well executed...isn't that something that should, by its very nature, be allowed to happen?
Maybe you would allow it to happen, I don't know. I'm just curious.
As for Corolinth's issues, a lot of that would be fixed if there was a more reliable flee mechanic. I'd like to see a street rat pull off an Aladdin-like chase through the streets, with the guards chasing but ultimately unable to catch him, without having to expend a pile of QP to do it. There has to be a way to make someone "slippery" in code.
Let's say those 1/3 of the playerbase that are mages actually got organized. Let's say they started plotting and planning, to make real changes and overthrow the order and subjugate us normal law abiding davites.
I wondered this in an OSAY to someone in a room once, and they said to me, "The staff would never let that big a change to the theme take place." So I forgot about it.
But then I got to think about it... why would then never allow it? If it was RPed well, if it were well executed...isn't that something that should, by its very nature, be allowed to happen?
Maybe you would allow it to happen, I don't know. I'm just curious.
As for Corolinth's issues, a lot of that would be fixed if there was a more reliable flee mechanic. I'd like to see a street rat pull off an Aladdin-like chase through the streets, with the guards chasing but ultimately unable to catch him, without having to expend a pile of QP to do it. There has to be a way to make someone "slippery" in code.
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