The title of this forum posts contain, what I think, might be the names of two new skills that people were talking about during the recent OOC convo. Also talked of was a way for the city lore code to save 'citizen reports' it sounded like, so that with the right skill a player could look at the city lore of a room to get a citizen report on a crime, if it was public? Not quite sure I understood that one; if the player who made the suggestion could come on here and explain, that'd be good.
But in the end, the discussion seemed to come down to one thing; the difference between investigative power and the power to cover up evidence. Before we get into the discussion in earnest, I (personally) need a bit of review on it. So my questions for you are;
What evidence do you think should be available for people who look for it (have the skill to look for it)? The conversation came up due to the thought that Reeves cannot investigate crimes very thoroughly. So what information should Reeves get access to? And what other functions of a subterfuge vs investigate system could you think of?
Subterfuge and Investigate
I actually think the RPA system works pretty well. All you do is talk to an imm and let them know you'd be investigating in an area, and what actions you'd take. They mediate with the criminal and let the Reeve know what they'd be likely to find. I don't have an issue with that personally... do others?
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The Shadow
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:54 pm
If I'm being completely honest, I agree with you Geras. It was brought up in the OOC meeting though, so here I am doing a follow up. To clarify, I think that RPA is fine - and when applicable, Thieves should be encouraged to leave lengthy and colorful moods in the rooms of crimes, describing any oddities that Sherlock Holmes might find.
But honestly, with just a simple robbery gig, there isn't enough evidence in medieval times TO leave. I don't know what they want from us, and when I asked the player who brought it up, they didn't respond.
So here I am, cheery as a bumble bee. >.>
But honestly, with just a simple robbery gig, there isn't enough evidence in medieval times TO leave. I don't know what they want from us, and when I asked the player who brought it up, they didn't respond.
So here I am, cheery as a bumble bee. >.>
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Takta
The problem with RPA is on the staffer side. It usually takes us quite a while to figure out an answer to even the most straightforward investigation question. We have to actually FIND OUT who did what where - if it was something that left a mood, that's easier, but sometimes it's not. We then have to get in touch with the player who was involved and ask them a lot of questions, then roll some dice and decide just how much the investigator should know.
And on top of that people are typically unhappy with the 10 QP cost (if not Reeves) or the limits on the free info (if Reeves).
A subterfuge/investigate system would allow us to provide more information without any staff burden, and therefore no QP cost, letting people save RPA for larger uses.
The way I imagine this would work (though I was not the original suggester!) would be that coded criminal activity would generate information that would be automatically entered into either moods or city lore entries. Either way, it would require certain levels of an investigate skill to see it, and there's a possibility of a subterfuge skill to determine the difficulty of seeing the info. This could also allow for voluntarily leaving messages with subterfuge skill, perhaps with a 'keyword' so that they could only be found by those with high investigate or those who had the keyword.
This could be implemented as part of a larger change I've often thought about. IF you've read help special extended, you know we have some extended descs with code purposes. There are rather more of them on the staffer side, incuding for example lore. Lore works like this: you create an extended desc called @<skillllevel>_lore (@25_lore for example) and then, if somebody has that amount of skill in lore, they can see the extended desc on look lore.
What about if this functionality worked with ALL skills and on objects as well as rooms? Herbs could be tagged with @skill_herbalism so that knowing what a herb does isn't solely a function of OOC info, but can be figured out via your actual level in herbalism if it's high enough. Consider could give you all sorts of extra information on unusual custom items. Crafted objects could reflect the skill of the crafter to either somebody with high consider or high ranks in the craft skill. There are probably other neat uses for it, but I'm digressing.
Anyway, the more stuff like this we can automate, the less people will need to spend their precious QPs on roleplay!
And on top of that people are typically unhappy with the 10 QP cost (if not Reeves) or the limits on the free info (if Reeves).
A subterfuge/investigate system would allow us to provide more information without any staff burden, and therefore no QP cost, letting people save RPA for larger uses.
The way I imagine this would work (though I was not the original suggester!) would be that coded criminal activity would generate information that would be automatically entered into either moods or city lore entries. Either way, it would require certain levels of an investigate skill to see it, and there's a possibility of a subterfuge skill to determine the difficulty of seeing the info. This could also allow for voluntarily leaving messages with subterfuge skill, perhaps with a 'keyword' so that they could only be found by those with high investigate or those who had the keyword.
This could be implemented as part of a larger change I've often thought about. IF you've read help special extended, you know we have some extended descs with code purposes. There are rather more of them on the staffer side, incuding for example lore. Lore works like this: you create an extended desc called @<skillllevel>_lore (@25_lore for example) and then, if somebody has that amount of skill in lore, they can see the extended desc on look lore.
What about if this functionality worked with ALL skills and on objects as well as rooms? Herbs could be tagged with @skill_herbalism so that knowing what a herb does isn't solely a function of OOC info, but can be figured out via your actual level in herbalism if it's high enough. Consider could give you all sorts of extra information on unusual custom items. Crafted objects could reflect the skill of the crafter to either somebody with high consider or high ranks in the craft skill. There are probably other neat uses for it, but I'm digressing.
Anyway, the more stuff like this we can automate, the less people will need to spend their precious QPs on roleplay!
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The Shadow
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:54 pm
Keep in mind that if you lower the cost for anything in depth for the Reeves (they already get free general investigations) that you'll have to lower the cost for the Thieves to do cool crimes. Most of our QP are spent on getting in and getting out at all, let alone unseen, and covering our tracks, and making sure our timing is perfect so we don't run into an angry Dag bear.Could the QP cost just be reduced for Reeves (and the Order in the case of magic-related crime)? Or is this that big of a pain in the ass already?
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Takta
The cost is what it is because these things take us time. If we were to lower the cost even more, there'd be even more RPA for us to do.
Moving away from RPA and toward empowering players to do these things without staff is the best solution for everybody, though admittedly those systems may not be as high-priority as code that allows people to do brand new things.
Moving away from RPA and toward empowering players to do these things without staff is the best solution for everybody, though admittedly those systems may not be as high-priority as code that allows people to do brand new things.
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The Shadow
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:54 pm
I agree with Takta. The problem is, is I don't exactly know what specifics to line up for Az. I mean, it'd be pretty nice to have a blood trail left from dragging corpses - and if you're B&G prompt it on, to have bloodied footprints left wherever you walk. These could be washed away by the rain. It'd also be nice for wounds to be visible on corpses - or something similar - so that the Reeves would have an idea of the murder weapon.
Those things, however, would be independent of this code because I really don't think they should be able to be covered up. They should just be.
The problem is finding evidence that can be covered up with the subterfuge skill, or examined by the investigation skill. How much do we want here? Piece of hair left behind if your subterfuge skill isn't up enough? (This would require players to have a hair color option in char gen.) Piece of torn clothing? (A piece of linen material is caught on something here. Alternatively, silk, sable, whatever the person's cloak/shirt is made of.)
Whatever is decided, I'd like to see two layers to the subterfuge skill - one, where you can NOT leave evidence behind, and two when you get further up the ranks where you can leave FALSE evidence behind.
Also, with a high enough investigation skill it'd be nice if people could 'interview' a public room. This could work similar to tracking, in that depending on how good your skill is you would get vNPCs telling you all the short descs of the people who moved through that room.
Those things, however, would be independent of this code because I really don't think they should be able to be covered up. They should just be.
The problem is finding evidence that can be covered up with the subterfuge skill, or examined by the investigation skill. How much do we want here? Piece of hair left behind if your subterfuge skill isn't up enough? (This would require players to have a hair color option in char gen.) Piece of torn clothing? (A piece of linen material is caught on something here. Alternatively, silk, sable, whatever the person's cloak/shirt is made of.)
Whatever is decided, I'd like to see two layers to the subterfuge skill - one, where you can NOT leave evidence behind, and two when you get further up the ranks where you can leave FALSE evidence behind.
Also, with a high enough investigation skill it'd be nice if people could 'interview' a public room. This could work similar to tracking, in that depending on how good your skill is you would get vNPCs telling you all the short descs of the people who moved through that room.
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Takta
Honestly, for investigate I was mostly thinking of something more like an interview function.
You type look evidence or something and you see, "A passerby tells you, 'I saw a person in a brown, hooded cloak over there picking that lock.' " (Except in lawless rooms, where this evidence might not be autogenerated).
Nothing remotely so complex as leaving genuine forensic info behind. Subterfuge could help offset this to represent a skill at hiding in plain sight, using distractions, etc.
This would really primarily be an automation of very simple investigation RP.
You type look evidence or something and you see, "A passerby tells you, 'I saw a person in a brown, hooded cloak over there picking that lock.' " (Except in lawless rooms, where this evidence might not be autogenerated).
Nothing remotely so complex as leaving genuine forensic info behind. Subterfuge could help offset this to represent a skill at hiding in plain sight, using distractions, etc.
This would really primarily be an automation of very simple investigation RP.
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