(Playing a monarch looks awful to me. I wouldn't do it on a bet. So anyone who does it, and sticks with it, is a hero in my book. And I adore most PCs that my PC despises. So I hope none of this comes across like a complaint about anyone's RP.)
I tend to think that theme-enforcement is the staff's job--maybe their most important job--but I know there are good arguments for a more hands-off approach. Then it occurred to me that there is already a mechanism for theme maintenance that doesn't require heavy staff involvement: the queen.
HELP LITHMORRAN LITHMORRAN: "[Davism has] has bred intolerance and deep-seated xenophobia. Lithmorrans ... believe their own ways to be superior as proven by the Lord of the Springs in their conquests during the Consolidation. Time has only further increased the close-minded attitudes of Lithmorrans as subsequent kings and nobles have themselves taken steps to secure the authority of Lithmore above all others."
HELP POLICY MONARCH: "Monarchs agree not to change anything about the game that requires an update or creation of a new help file without getting express approval of the staff."
I've never even seen the current monarch (and I suspect that if I play my freeman pcs properly, I never will) so I have no idea how she is played. However, unless I'm missing something, it strikes me that she's obliged to support, if not actually feel, ethnic intolerance, deep-seated xenophobia, and close-minded assumptions of Lithmorran superiority.
The Queen of Theme?
I'm not aware of the Queen ever putting her foot down against racism and xenophobia. One thing to keep in mind is that the nobility and the Monarch are probably the least xenophobic though, given how much intermarriage happens between the noble families of the Duchies. They'd still have their prejudices against Hillfolk and Charali though.
We saw a lot of Approval hits on the Queen when she raised foreigners to local titles, so I think that's alive and well in the pbase. I can also say that I've never seen the Queen's player ICly quash racism, and I might *cough* have even seen/heard her indulge in lesser bits of it herself behind closed doors.
Even if the Queen is xenophobic, she's got political reasons not to trash talk her foreign subjects, for example. The Dukes and Duchesses have armies of their own and are, despite their titles, monarchs of their respective duchies - to the extent that there's recently been RPA to speak about nobles of another duchy's court with the ruler of that Duchy. I'm sure she could get away with trash talking Tubor though *toothy grin* Kidding!
Even if the Queen is xenophobic, she's got political reasons not to trash talk her foreign subjects, for example. The Dukes and Duchesses have armies of their own and are, despite their titles, monarchs of their respective duchies - to the extent that there's recently been RPA to speak about nobles of another duchy's court with the ruler of that Duchy. I'm sure she could get away with trash talking Tubor though *toothy grin* Kidding!
Oh, on a general note about staff enforcing theme - yes, TI staff's stance is pretty hands off about theme enforcement. We generally avoid it for a few reasons:
1) the players are generally pretty good about telling one another off about theme, so we don't have to. There are mechanisms in game such as support and GL Approval that give people good reason to support theme. Even the recommend code rewards traditionalists. So, if someone is a butt about theme, it's usually for good enough reason that it can be viewed as situational rather than an overall issue about players not knowing or acting appropriately across the board.
2) I've been to games where the staff get involved at that level, and my view is that it isn't pretty. So we don't do it. I know some players, like yourself, may feel this is wrong of us, and I respect that opinion, but I have to be honest - whereas to a degree I actually agree with you about that, my feeling is that as a priority enforcing theme as staff is lower than, for example, appearing unbiased and allowing players to resolve their own disputes.
The above said, in areas of huge theme violation - the staff probably will step in. At this point, for us, however, it would be more along the lines of 'the game is going to suffer horribly and may not survive if a player does that unthematic thing' before we'd step in. That is, we're caretakers of the game, so people taking a bit of creative licence and being nice to that Charali bloke might be annoying, it's not going to blow up Lithmore as a city (so no, we will NOT allow players to invent gunpowder, for example).
Overall message: Balance and priorities, priorities and balance.
1) the players are generally pretty good about telling one another off about theme, so we don't have to. There are mechanisms in game such as support and GL Approval that give people good reason to support theme. Even the recommend code rewards traditionalists. So, if someone is a butt about theme, it's usually for good enough reason that it can be viewed as situational rather than an overall issue about players not knowing or acting appropriately across the board.
2) I've been to games where the staff get involved at that level, and my view is that it isn't pretty. So we don't do it. I know some players, like yourself, may feel this is wrong of us, and I respect that opinion, but I have to be honest - whereas to a degree I actually agree with you about that, my feeling is that as a priority enforcing theme as staff is lower than, for example, appearing unbiased and allowing players to resolve their own disputes.
The above said, in areas of huge theme violation - the staff probably will step in. At this point, for us, however, it would be more along the lines of 'the game is going to suffer horribly and may not survive if a player does that unthematic thing' before we'd step in. That is, we're caretakers of the game, so people taking a bit of creative licence and being nice to that Charali bloke might be annoying, it's not going to blow up Lithmore as a city (so no, we will NOT allow players to invent gunpowder, for example).
Overall message: Balance and priorities, priorities and balance.
I can't speak for Cellan directly, except to say that she has a good head on her shoulders with regards to TI theme and expressing it through her RP.
I have, however, played the monarch; both as Charmaine at the start of TI: Legacy, as Gemara shortly thereafter (although she was more distant.) Before that, I played Richael as both Crown Princess and Queen for a few years back on TI2. My take on it, was that my main goal in the game was to be the active and explicit gatekeeper of TI theme.
My approach as a Lithmorran monarch is one of having an opinion of cultural superiority, a belief that Lithmorran ways are the best, and that the royal family was the pinnacle of that elitism. Granted, this was back in the time of the ab Harmons when there was a lineal descent from Dav. Non-Lithmorran nobles were welcome, but generally of less import and outright influence. Lithmorrans were favoured in government positions (where appropriate, given pbase sizes.) Generally, the mindset is similar to that of late-Republican and early-Imperial Romans. They had a huge, multinational empire and they were content to draw on and exploit the resources of that empire, and were always sure of their place at the top of it. (not that that worked out for the Romans of Italia so well in the long run.)
My monarchs were also always balls-to-the-wall supporters of the church as well, especially in public. The Crown and the church benefit mutually from offering one another strong support. Again, those dynamics may have shifted since the Patriarchy crisis, so... grain of salt there. On the other hand, Charmaine did covertly off a Cardinal when she was convinced of his corruption- but in public, the support of the Order and their stances on issues was always absolute.
I'll be the first to agree that playing the Monarch can be a very large challenge and my hat truly goes off to Cellan.
On a side note, I'm playing a conservative, backwards, racist and xenophobic (not to mention sexist) noble right now, and enjoying it considerably. He does have some redeeming qualities, I swear!
-Hera.
I have, however, played the monarch; both as Charmaine at the start of TI: Legacy, as Gemara shortly thereafter (although she was more distant.) Before that, I played Richael as both Crown Princess and Queen for a few years back on TI2. My take on it, was that my main goal in the game was to be the active and explicit gatekeeper of TI theme.
My approach as a Lithmorran monarch is one of having an opinion of cultural superiority, a belief that Lithmorran ways are the best, and that the royal family was the pinnacle of that elitism. Granted, this was back in the time of the ab Harmons when there was a lineal descent from Dav. Non-Lithmorran nobles were welcome, but generally of less import and outright influence. Lithmorrans were favoured in government positions (where appropriate, given pbase sizes.) Generally, the mindset is similar to that of late-Republican and early-Imperial Romans. They had a huge, multinational empire and they were content to draw on and exploit the resources of that empire, and were always sure of their place at the top of it. (not that that worked out for the Romans of Italia so well in the long run.)
My monarchs were also always balls-to-the-wall supporters of the church as well, especially in public. The Crown and the church benefit mutually from offering one another strong support. Again, those dynamics may have shifted since the Patriarchy crisis, so... grain of salt there. On the other hand, Charmaine did covertly off a Cardinal when she was convinced of his corruption- but in public, the support of the Order and their stances on issues was always absolute.
I'll be the first to agree that playing the Monarch can be a very large challenge and my hat truly goes off to Cellan.
On a side note, I'm playing a conservative, backwards, racist and xenophobic (not to mention sexist) noble right now, and enjoying it considerably. He does have some redeeming qualities, I swear!
-Hera.
If a PC is afraid to talk smack in public, that's not a xenophobic society. If there are political realities that Vandagan or Vavardi, say, are so powerful that they must be treated with respect, that's a great motivation for Lithmorran PCs to remove that power. And the fact that intermarriage is tolerated pretty much entirely invalidates that helpfile entirely.
(And I wasn't aware that the Queen raised foreigners to local titles. How is that not 'quashing racism'? Though, again, I'm utterly certain that the queen is being played completely in the tradition of the game, and obviously I'm a minority of one!)
GL Approval actually undermines theme. If there is one place where staff can easily enforce theme it's via GL approval. But if I understand correctly, a GL is supported or opposed by other PCs, who are so often (and so rightly!) misfits and heretics and forward-thinking foreigners, and the 99.99% of the world that is vnpc (and that does hew to the helpfiles), have very little voice.
I love playing my wannabe fascist as an outsider, and don't actually want anything to change. (At least not now, dammit!) But I also think it's a flat fact that the world-as-played and the theme-in-helpfiles are in direct conflict.
(And I wasn't aware that the Queen raised foreigners to local titles. How is that not 'quashing racism'? Though, again, I'm utterly certain that the queen is being played completely in the tradition of the game, and obviously I'm a minority of one!)
GL Approval actually undermines theme. If there is one place where staff can easily enforce theme it's via GL approval. But if I understand correctly, a GL is supported or opposed by other PCs, who are so often (and so rightly!) misfits and heretics and forward-thinking foreigners, and the 99.99% of the world that is vnpc (and that does hew to the helpfiles), have very little voice.
I love playing my wannabe fascist as an outsider, and don't actually want anything to change. (At least not now, dammit!) But I also think it's a flat fact that the world-as-played and the theme-in-helpfiles are in direct conflict.
I'm feeling a sudden sense of deja vu. As if I've already bashed this subject around on another forum, in another time, in another place...
Xenophobia does exist, but so does political maneuvering, backstabbing, treason, ect and ect. It looks like the theme here has been changed so much in recent times that xenophobia has taken a back seat. It's still there, but the Monarch isn't patriarch, they aren't a Harmon and their station is precarious compared to the absolute authority that I think the Harmon's held. The monarch can't exactly afford to say 'frak you Vavardi trash, I'm Lithmorran.' They have to play the game of politics, just as much as everyone else, and through that game they might not be outwardly racist, but they might use other races, or abuse them to their own benefit.
We'd never know the Queen's reasons for raising a foreigner. Maybe she's just evil and wants to see them fail?
Basically what I'm trying to get across is that you have to consider the ramifications of being racist to a noble foreigner, as a commoner, or a gentry. People would make rumors about their status, but who would actually openly challenge them? ICly, it's tricky, and we never really know a character's reasons for doing one thing or another.
And as I see it, we're in perfect balance there, because I can't go more than a week before hearing a disparaging racist rumor.
In short, no I don't think the helpfiles here need to be updated. Not yet, anyways. Racism isn't as prevalent here, I don't believe, as it might be on other Inquisition themes where a certain Vavardian-Lithmorran conflict happened. It's still there, but it's a subtle tension, rather than brought to the forefront.
Xenophobia does exist, but so does political maneuvering, backstabbing, treason, ect and ect. It looks like the theme here has been changed so much in recent times that xenophobia has taken a back seat. It's still there, but the Monarch isn't patriarch, they aren't a Harmon and their station is precarious compared to the absolute authority that I think the Harmon's held. The monarch can't exactly afford to say 'frak you Vavardi trash, I'm Lithmorran.' They have to play the game of politics, just as much as everyone else, and through that game they might not be outwardly racist, but they might use other races, or abuse them to their own benefit.
We'd never know the Queen's reasons for raising a foreigner. Maybe she's just evil and wants to see them fail?
Basically what I'm trying to get across is that you have to consider the ramifications of being racist to a noble foreigner, as a commoner, or a gentry. People would make rumors about their status, but who would actually openly challenge them? ICly, it's tricky, and we never really know a character's reasons for doing one thing or another.
And as I see it, we're in perfect balance there, because I can't go more than a week before hearing a disparaging racist rumor.
In short, no I don't think the helpfiles here need to be updated. Not yet, anyways. Racism isn't as prevalent here, I don't believe, as it might be on other Inquisition themes where a certain Vavardian-Lithmorran conflict happened. It's still there, but it's a subtle tension, rather than brought to the forefront.
Player of: Alexander ab Courtland
I personally feel like BingoX is spot on, and have for a long time. The prevailing culture does not fit the helpfiles.
And that's not a BAD thing, it's just reality.
The minority of players who are racist is just that, a minority. And frankly, racism is an ugly and uncomfortable thing to play, and I don't think we should actually require it.
I'd much prefer it if the helpfiles said something like...
'Lithmorran culture is somewhat xenophobic in that Lithmorrans tend to believe in their own superiority. This tendency is particularly pronounced in the isolated areas of the duchy. However, Lithmore City's status as both a 'melting pot' of various cultures and the realm's major seat of government means that foreigners in position of power are not an uncommon sight. As such, the citydwellers tend to be more liberal in regards to race than their rural compatriots, though it's not hard to find people who grumble about thieving Tubori, greedy Vavardi or corrupt Vandagans..."
This provides for a thematic and realistic level of racism while also far more matching the reality of play. Both the true xenophobes and the more 'enlightened' PCs have a thematic place in this kind of world.
And that's not a BAD thing, it's just reality.
The minority of players who are racist is just that, a minority. And frankly, racism is an ugly and uncomfortable thing to play, and I don't think we should actually require it.
I'd much prefer it if the helpfiles said something like...
'Lithmorran culture is somewhat xenophobic in that Lithmorrans tend to believe in their own superiority. This tendency is particularly pronounced in the isolated areas of the duchy. However, Lithmore City's status as both a 'melting pot' of various cultures and the realm's major seat of government means that foreigners in position of power are not an uncommon sight. As such, the citydwellers tend to be more liberal in regards to race than their rural compatriots, though it's not hard to find people who grumble about thieving Tubori, greedy Vavardi or corrupt Vandagans..."
This provides for a thematic and realistic level of racism while also far more matching the reality of play. Both the true xenophobes and the more 'enlightened' PCs have a thematic place in this kind of world.
The single largest draw for me to TI over any of the many other games out there was the high level of conflict built right into the very fabric of the game through the theme.
I wouldn't change the helpfiles, if for no other reason than it encourages people brand new to the game to embrace that sort of base level conflict that leads to a game being dynamic and fun. It doesn't sound anywhere near as interesting to tone it down from the get go.
If the prevailing attitude of the game as played is a bit more lax, then, well, people will figure that out and adjust, or not. If you were to change the helpfiles, then it suddenly becomes very hard to play that bigoted, racist jerk that gives everyone else something to talk about and react to.
Also, I agree the 99% of the population we don't see should have some sort of presence, especially when it comes to approvals. The unwashed masses may not mean much on their own, but together they are a mob. Mobs do scary things when you start messing with their basic beliefs, and I believe those enlightened elite casting their support would be aware of that and act accordingly.
I don't even know how the approval process works. Does everyone get a vote? Or only those PCs considered influential and in the guild? Maybe everyone should get a vote, then those PCs playing the xenophobic narrow minded bigots (much love for y'all, really!) can act as a substitute for some of the missing ruling class that surely would feel their way. That's the only solution I can think of that would also allow staff to remain hands-off.
[Edit to add: So, hypothetically, could some characters band together and use quest points and RPA to see if they could stir up the smallfolk into an angry pitchforky mob?]
I wouldn't change the helpfiles, if for no other reason than it encourages people brand new to the game to embrace that sort of base level conflict that leads to a game being dynamic and fun. It doesn't sound anywhere near as interesting to tone it down from the get go.
If the prevailing attitude of the game as played is a bit more lax, then, well, people will figure that out and adjust, or not. If you were to change the helpfiles, then it suddenly becomes very hard to play that bigoted, racist jerk that gives everyone else something to talk about and react to.
Also, I agree the 99% of the population we don't see should have some sort of presence, especially when it comes to approvals. The unwashed masses may not mean much on their own, but together they are a mob. Mobs do scary things when you start messing with their basic beliefs, and I believe those enlightened elite casting their support would be aware of that and act accordingly.
I don't even know how the approval process works. Does everyone get a vote? Or only those PCs considered influential and in the guild? Maybe everyone should get a vote, then those PCs playing the xenophobic narrow minded bigots (much love for y'all, really!) can act as a substitute for some of the missing ruling class that surely would feel their way. That's the only solution I can think of that would also allow staff to remain hands-off.
[Edit to add: So, hypothetically, could some characters band together and use quest points and RPA to see if they could stir up the smallfolk into an angry pitchforky mob?]
Wrote up a big response talking about pragmatism and Rome and then Dice comes in and makes it all irrelevant. :(
On the racism thing, I think there has to be balance. Some prejudice is a good thing - it creates conflict and drives RP. Taken to the extreme, it divides our PBase into insular same-race cliques, and denies characters a chance to advance on the merits of their RP.
It doesn't even make sense either. Lithmore is the capital of an ethnically and linguistically diverse kingdom. At the very least, some people will take the pragmatic route and choose tolerance.
I have to agree with Dice. I think the helpfiles should be revised to say something along the lines that prejudice and racism are widespread, but not universal. Or something like that.
[Edit]
And now Bryony's post forces me to consider revising my own lol.
I think the point that the helpfiles as they stand push the MUD in a certain (good) direction is valid. I personally feel the helpfiles should be more just a tool for information though, and more or less accurate. Perhaps if the helpfiles are toned down, some other means could be used to encourage this behaviour that we want? Or at least make it clear that playing prejudiced characters is not only acceptable but encouraged?
On the racism thing, I think there has to be balance. Some prejudice is a good thing - it creates conflict and drives RP. Taken to the extreme, it divides our PBase into insular same-race cliques, and denies characters a chance to advance on the merits of their RP.
It doesn't even make sense either. Lithmore is the capital of an ethnically and linguistically diverse kingdom. At the very least, some people will take the pragmatic route and choose tolerance.
I have to agree with Dice. I think the helpfiles should be revised to say something along the lines that prejudice and racism are widespread, but not universal. Or something like that.
[Edit]
And now Bryony's post forces me to consider revising my own lol.
I think the point that the helpfiles as they stand push the MUD in a certain (good) direction is valid. I personally feel the helpfiles should be more just a tool for information though, and more or less accurate. Perhaps if the helpfiles are toned down, some other means could be used to encourage this behaviour that we want? Or at least make it clear that playing prejudiced characters is not only acceptable but encouraged?
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