During the ooc chat, the process of Seeking was brought up and whether or not it should be changed. The main concern was that it seemed it was incredibly difficult to find the proper amount of sponsors due to various reasons. One side of the group talked about removing seeking all together, another side spoke about reducing the number of sponsors to a set number instead of changing based on the number of guild members, and of course there were other ideas while another portion spoke up about just keeping it the same.
For reference, here is the reason's kinaed stated for why Seeking is the way it is.
Kinaed states, "So seeking is about:
1. Giving a guild a chance to interact with a player to determine if they're guildable. On TI, people don't have a right to a guild role just because they WANT to play one. This is an older construct that may have less need these days as the pbase is far more mature, but there's a core reason there. That said, I still want guilds to be discerning.
2. Limiting guilds that are full. I'm sorry, but we need Orderites and Thieves right now, not more merchants. Without that variety in the game, TI's systems begin to fail. This is why we limit how many awakened mages we have, how many nobles we have, etc. So the sponsorship requirements for entering the guild get more stringent as the guild becomes more successful.
3. Finally, we are establishing characters and actually introducing people through a controlled series of events. These interactions begin to build the character, and in a small way that is far more real to the game than a backstory writeup.
So yeah, discuss about what you think should be changed to seeking, or discuss why it should stay the same
[Poll] Seeking Discussion
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Applesauce
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:13 pm
I don't remember all of the details right now, but what I DO remember about Guild Roles seems like that would have solved some of the issues with seeking. Each guild could define a Role for the seeker, and upon first contact anyone with the right permissions could set the seeker to that Role. That might give them hall/board access, it might give them the channel, all depending on the guild's definition for that Role.
If nothing else, that eases the process of getting to know other guild members before they let you in "for real". After all, we don't want a brand new seeker getting access to Merchant vaults or Ahalin Tower or the thief den or whatever. This way, too, if a guild has 10 code-active members but only 3 truly-RP-available members, they don't have to worry about unrealistic sponsor requirements.
If Guild Roles have been backburnered for the forseeable future then it might be worth figuring out some changes in the meantime, but I think TI has a lot of "systems built upon broken systems" and it might be more worth keeping what we have until Roles can be prioritized.
If nothing else, that eases the process of getting to know other guild members before they let you in "for real". After all, we don't want a brand new seeker getting access to Merchant vaults or Ahalin Tower or the thief den or whatever. This way, too, if a guild has 10 code-active members but only 3 truly-RP-available members, they don't have to worry about unrealistic sponsor requirements.
If Guild Roles have been backburnered for the forseeable future then it might be worth figuring out some changes in the meantime, but I think TI has a lot of "systems built upon broken systems" and it might be more worth keeping what we have until Roles can be prioritized.
The same basic systems have been in place since like the first TI. I know it's been the same basic idea in most of the iterations I've played over the years. Why is this just coming up now? And how feasible is changing the entire system, or even tweaking it, from a coder/builder point of view?
Yes, I've waited like an OOC month to join a guild before. Yes, it's been a pain in the rump, but sometimes that's the way things work out. There are a thousand and one ways to make an RP impact in this story, and there are a thousand ways that you can RP in this story; being in a guild is only one part of that overall experience, so, yes, sometimes you have to be patient.
I've personally seen numerous times I've heard seekers had spoken with staff about not getting enough sponsorship RP, but they hadn't really written, and they hadn't really sent messengers, and they hadn't bothered with pboards.
I'm always going to be cautious about change, but if there is a better system to be had, then I'm willing to consider it. I just don't understand why we're having this conversation 10+ years and half a dozen iterations of the game later, and I'm suspicious that the root of it is that there is simply a lack of patience sometimes, and at most times, the problem is a needed change in the way that counting people as active works.
Yes, I've waited like an OOC month to join a guild before. Yes, it's been a pain in the rump, but sometimes that's the way things work out. There are a thousand and one ways to make an RP impact in this story, and there are a thousand ways that you can RP in this story; being in a guild is only one part of that overall experience, so, yes, sometimes you have to be patient.
I've personally seen numerous times I've heard seekers had spoken with staff about not getting enough sponsorship RP, but they hadn't really written, and they hadn't really sent messengers, and they hadn't bothered with pboards.
I'm always going to be cautious about change, but if there is a better system to be had, then I'm willing to consider it. I just don't understand why we're having this conversation 10+ years and half a dozen iterations of the game later, and I'm suspicious that the root of it is that there is simply a lack of patience sometimes, and at most times, the problem is a needed change in the way that counting people as active works.
I picked Yes, Minor Changes.
I don't think there's much of a problem with the seeking setup, but there's one with communication and expectations of responsibility on both sides.
The short version, both Seekers and Guildees have plenty of tools available to make the interview-and-sponsor-or-deny process relatively swift. I can list 'em if anybody's interested but I think most if not all are already well-known.
Actually- instead of a long-winded but well-meaning post about what each side can do to make the entire process less painful, I'm just going to suggest that the message you get when you start seeking be changed in several ways.
Instead of just this prompt:
OOC: Your seeking is ICly and OOCly visible to the Knights.
Please ICly mail Zumini de Moradar.
The Knights currently requires 2 sponsors for entry.
I think there should be a POLCA where the seeker puts in their name (or preferred mail alias), an introduction, and basic "why I want to join" blurb that posts as a gnote to the guild in question. Then when they've finished that, they'll get this prompt that encourages them to read HELP SEEKS (which should be adjusted to give good guidelines on how to find and approach guild members), how many sponsors they need, and I guess direction to write to one's GLs is still good practice.
I don't think there's much of a problem with the seeking setup, but there's one with communication and expectations of responsibility on both sides.
The short version, both Seekers and Guildees have plenty of tools available to make the interview-and-sponsor-or-deny process relatively swift. I can list 'em if anybody's interested but I think most if not all are already well-known.
Actually- instead of a long-winded but well-meaning post about what each side can do to make the entire process less painful, I'm just going to suggest that the message you get when you start seeking be changed in several ways.
Instead of just this prompt:
OOC: Your seeking is ICly and OOCly visible to the Knights.
Please ICly mail Zumini de Moradar.
The Knights currently requires 2 sponsors for entry.
I think there should be a POLCA where the seeker puts in their name (or preferred mail alias), an introduction, and basic "why I want to join" blurb that posts as a gnote to the guild in question. Then when they've finished that, they'll get this prompt that encourages them to read HELP SEEKS (which should be adjusted to give good guidelines on how to find and approach guild members), how many sponsors they need, and I guess direction to write to one's GLs is still good practice.
Last edited by Inertia on Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Love it. Another thing that I just thought of is allowing people to sponsor from afar/even when others are offline just from what they hear or know of others. That might make it a good deal easier. From my own personal experience on grid, there are certain people whose sponsorship that I automatically trust and I automatically follow in with.Inertia wrote:I picked Yes, Minor Changes.
I don't think there's much of a problem with the seeking setup, but there's one with communication and expectations of responsibility on both sides.
The short version, both Seekers and Guildees have plenty of tools available to make the interview-and-sponsor-or-deny process relatively swift. I can list 'em if anybody's interested but I think most if not all are already well-known.
Actually- instead of a long-winded but well-meaning post about what each side can do to make the entire process less painful, I'm just going to suggest that the message you get when you start seeking be changed in several ways.
Instead of just this prompt:
OOC: Your seeking is ICly and OOCly visible to the Knights.
Please ICly mail Zumini de Moradar.
The Knights currently requires 2 sponsors for entry.
I think there should be a POLCA where the seeker puts in their name (or preferred mail alias), an introduction, and basic "why I want to join" blurb that posts as a gnote to the guild in question. Then when they've finished that, they'll get this prompt that encourages them to read HELP SEEKS (which should be adjusted to give good guidelines on how to find and approach guild members), how many sponsors they need, and I guess direction to write to one's GLs is still good practice.
The 10 hour rp time mentioned at the OOC meeting strikes me as a good idea.
Edit for clarity: Just about my whole "seek list" is full of people I've never seen before, or saw just long enough for them to create a character, type seek merchant, and never log in again. I think that requiring a little bit of RP to gauge your interest in the game (or the character) would be a great prerequisite to seeking a guild.
Edit for clarity: Just about my whole "seek list" is full of people I've never seen before, or saw just long enough for them to create a character, type seek merchant, and never log in again. I think that requiring a little bit of RP to gauge your interest in the game (or the character) would be a great prerequisite to seeking a guild.
Personally, I believe that seeking should be removed from the game as a functioning, coded mechanic, but remain in concept through RP. I don't find seeking especially beneficial for anyone, seeker or guilder, since seekers often have to wait long periods just to acquire the necessary amount of sponsors (from what I've heard), and that's in cases when getting sponsors is possible since guilds have a plethora of inactivity in their membership; a guilder can be overwhelmed, since there can be numerous seekers at once and constructing interviews with all could be difficult to facilitate around the character's own RP and whatnot. I don't think that seeking as a mechanic can really do much but fruatrate and annoy players, especially newer ones who believe that being in a guild is the only way that they can have fun in the game (and to some extent, it is). Frustration isn't good to those who are unfamiliar and unsure - it is just reinforcement for the idea that something isn't worth the time if it isn't giving back what you are putting in.
My solution would be this: instant-guild seekers: so say someone in chargen wants to be a Reeve, they will be automatically be inducted into the Reeves and coded as such, but they aren't actually part of the Reeves, persay. They have access to the channel, which can help them familiarize themselves with the other guildmembers, and they are acknowledged as a part of the guild, but in positions akin to interns. That way, undesirables can quickly be rooted out should the need arise, and they won't have influence on public perception concerning the guild. There should be a limit on this 'intern' position of about two weeks, because if the person is active, they most likely have made an impression on guild members at that point, and thus can be permanently guilded. This eliminates an orientation and tedious interview RP that is mainly standard for all seekers, because they can easily alter character traits just so they can get into the guild easier.
That's just my two cents. I'm still a nub, so I get it of my proposal doesn't make sense to you vets.
My solution would be this: instant-guild seekers: so say someone in chargen wants to be a Reeve, they will be automatically be inducted into the Reeves and coded as such, but they aren't actually part of the Reeves, persay. They have access to the channel, which can help them familiarize themselves with the other guildmembers, and they are acknowledged as a part of the guild, but in positions akin to interns. That way, undesirables can quickly be rooted out should the need arise, and they won't have influence on public perception concerning the guild. There should be a limit on this 'intern' position of about two weeks, because if the person is active, they most likely have made an impression on guild members at that point, and thus can be permanently guilded. This eliminates an orientation and tedious interview RP that is mainly standard for all seekers, because they can easily alter character traits just so they can get into the guild easier.
That's just my two cents. I'm still a nub, so I get it of my proposal doesn't make sense to you vets.
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Voxumo
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I voted for No, and I'll state my reason.
There is nothing wrong with seeking as a mechanic. The problem lies in the players and their perspective of the guilds. You aren't entitled automatically to a position in a guild. So even if you create a character concept that was a veteran knight, and wishes to renew their servitude, you aren't going to get in automatically. The guildmembers and GL have the right to say 'No, you aren't right for this guild'.. but that shouldn't be the end of the world, it should be a driving force to prove yourself through rp and improve upon whatever reason they provided as to why, or even seek another guild.
Secondly as someone stated above, it seems like alot of the time the complaints with seeking comes from seekers who haven't made an effort to really seek... There is a reason it's called seeking, and if you don't try to get ahold of any guild members, whether through mail, pboard, messengers, other methods, then it's not the guilds fault that you aren't getting sponsored. Though on the other end, if the guild is making no effort whatsoever to get with you even after pboards and whatnot, then you can bring it up to staff.
Thirdly, as someone else pointed out above, I don't get why a mechanic that has been around for so long is just now getting crap for the way it works. Nothing's changed about it, if anything it's the players that have changed. Now that's not to say there isn't issues with seeking. Are those issues big enough to merit change, not really. If anything it just seems like people need to get better patience, and realize this game is about rp, and seeking creates that rp. And a bit of frustration is healthy, if people can't handle the frustration seeking brings... maybe they aren't meant for a game like this.
There is nothing wrong with seeking as a mechanic. The problem lies in the players and their perspective of the guilds. You aren't entitled automatically to a position in a guild. So even if you create a character concept that was a veteran knight, and wishes to renew their servitude, you aren't going to get in automatically. The guildmembers and GL have the right to say 'No, you aren't right for this guild'.. but that shouldn't be the end of the world, it should be a driving force to prove yourself through rp and improve upon whatever reason they provided as to why, or even seek another guild.
Secondly as someone stated above, it seems like alot of the time the complaints with seeking comes from seekers who haven't made an effort to really seek... There is a reason it's called seeking, and if you don't try to get ahold of any guild members, whether through mail, pboard, messengers, other methods, then it's not the guilds fault that you aren't getting sponsored. Though on the other end, if the guild is making no effort whatsoever to get with you even after pboards and whatnot, then you can bring it up to staff.
Thirdly, as someone else pointed out above, I don't get why a mechanic that has been around for so long is just now getting crap for the way it works. Nothing's changed about it, if anything it's the players that have changed. Now that's not to say there isn't issues with seeking. Are those issues big enough to merit change, not really. If anything it just seems like people need to get better patience, and realize this game is about rp, and seeking creates that rp. And a bit of frustration is healthy, if people can't handle the frustration seeking brings... maybe they aren't meant for a game like this.
Lurks the Forums
The thing is, the game isn't about seeking, it's about RP, and I don't think that the two should be confused in the context of both being very important to the game - a new player leaving because of frustration with seeking shouldn't be summed up with, 'Ah well, they probably wouldn't have been right for the game anyway.'.Voxumo wrote: a bit of frustration is healthy, if people can't handle the frustration seeking brings... maybe they aren't meant for a game like this.
If a new player's first experience with the game' s socio-economic RP mechanic in the relative new length of their stay (say two weeks or so), is being led to believe that being a part of a guild is essential to getting the 100% feel of TI, yet can't due to issues such as inactivity from a guild that they set their character up for, that can drive people who would have been perfect fits for the game away. I don't think frustration over seeking should represent the precursor of 'healthy' frustration that TI can offer. It just seems detrimental to me.
I think Vox's point was more that the seeking process is roleplay. You roleplay with members of the guild you're after to get their sponsorship. In TI's case seeking literally does equal roleplay. It's just that it's a specific type of roleplay, and the opinions on whether or not it's a vital type are somewhat divided.
As a brand new player, I found the seeking process (which was for 3 individual sponsors, at the time) to be what first managed to immerse me into the RP world. I was required to put in RP with members of the guild I wanted to join. I got to know them, have even maintained really long term IC friendships with 2 of the 3. Without seeking those experiences wouldn't have happened.
That's not to say everyone should or would enjoy it quite as much, but it can be really valuable RP. I also tend to feel that most of the issues folks have with seeking can be resolved by talking to other players and their would-be guildleaders. If all else fails, letters and couriers have gotten you nowhere, open a dialogue and voice your frustration. I strongly feel that every GL we have would respond with going out of their way to help you get things moving.
As a brand new player, I found the seeking process (which was for 3 individual sponsors, at the time) to be what first managed to immerse me into the RP world. I was required to put in RP with members of the guild I wanted to join. I got to know them, have even maintained really long term IC friendships with 2 of the 3. Without seeking those experiences wouldn't have happened.
That's not to say everyone should or would enjoy it quite as much, but it can be really valuable RP. I also tend to feel that most of the issues folks have with seeking can be resolved by talking to other players and their would-be guildleaders. If all else fails, letters and couriers have gotten you nowhere, open a dialogue and voice your frustration. I strongly feel that every GL we have would respond with going out of their way to help you get things moving.
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