Theme - Knights Arrest Mages

[Limonade]

If not a skill, maybe there could be some other mechanic that prevents or discourages non-Orderites from engaging mages in battle with abandon. I'm still partial to it being represented as a skill, since I believe it elegantly addresses multiple issues of theme that we're having here, but I could also see it being a trait unique to knights (and extended to people in their group) or made available to purchase for non-knight character at a cost. We already restrict players' RP by code quite liberally - things like social class, skills, and even appearance are codified by in-game systems, and I think it's terribly reactionary to say that any new game mechanic that factors into RP is unduly restrictive.

Wouldn't that be a way of bringing back piety?

[Dice]

But we don't force people to act thematically with code. We don't force people to only wear their class's clothing; we don't limit people from picking up sword as a skill even if they're Joe Blow freeman. Adding a serious limitation to prevent people from battling mages is a step further than we've ever gone, and I really can't agree with it, personally. I also want to note Kinaed's point was that non-Orderites cannot ARREST mages, not that fighting them is always athematic.

I do think advantaging the people who should be able to do it well is better than disadvantaging those who shouldn't be able to do it.

[Tremere]

But we don't force people to act thematically with code. We don't force people to only wear their class's clothing; we don't limit people from picking up sword as a skill even if they're Joe Blow freeman. Adding a serious limitation to prevent people from battling mages is a step further than we've ever gone, and I really can't agree with it, personally. I also want to note Kinaed's point was that non-Orderites cannot ARREST mages, not that fighting them is always athematic.

I do think advantaging the people who should be able to do it well is better than disadvantaging those who shouldn't be able to do it.

+1

[Hansel]

I have the feeling that the unwanted habit we're supposed to address behind the sentence "only knights arrest mages" is not clearly defined.

- As I see it, that's a reminder of an order guildnote stating that an inquisitor can not arrest the mage himself, he only can post a warrant. That makes sense, because otherwise warriors inquisitors make the knights useless. If a skill has to address this, it should be reserved to the knights, and not to all the orderites.

- We saw recently a couple attacking a mage and attempting to arrest him. That case was so special that reminding people of the thematic behaviours was the best thing to do, in my opinion.

- Outside of that case, I don't recall any other example of a non orderite arresting a mage. If that is the behaviour we want to avoid, then, I must say that I am simply ignorant of that behaviour.

- Otherwise, people probably tend to not flee when they face a mage. I believe that people simply want to roleplay, and that means facing the mage a little, instead of leaving immediatly to an empty room. In the few scenes I had with mages, I saw people doing their best to avoid fighting the mage (roleplaying they are affraid, clumsy, not equiped, etc.). I believe that behaviour is thematic.

So, I believe the problem should be more clearly defined to be adressed correctly.

[Zeita]

I have no problem with enforcing this through the IC powers-that-be, whether Reeves or Order. If it is an illegal, unacceptable or whatever act, then that can be dealt with by the appropriate group. If that needs staff to set new laws or guidelines in place, so be it.

That said, I also find Galen's idea appealing. Magic (rather than mages per se) -should- be scary to face, demons doubly so.

[Geras]

I have no problem with enforcing this through the IC powers-that-be, whether Reeves or Order. If it is an illegal, unacceptable or whatever act, then that can be dealt with by the appropriate group. If that needs staff to set new laws or guidelines in place, so be it.

That said, I also find Galen's idea appealing. Magic (rather than mages per se) -should- be scary to face, demons doubly so.

I really dislike the idea of using code to force people to be good RPers.

[Kinaed]

I don't see a skill or attribute like this as forcing people to be good RPers, it's more about ingraining theme into game systems, which I tend to agree with is good game design - that's why the Order has a 'burn' command, for example. Stock ROM doesn't. If our theme wasn't about burning mages, the TI just wouldn't have that command.

Therefore, programming a fight factor, superstitious level, or even the piety of a given character is absolutely valid. The only reason we moved off piety is that it was implemented in a manner that wasn't really great for RP and had poor leverage in RP. Similarly, if we can't find a good, RP supportive way to implement something like this, we won't do it. That'd cause more harm than good, but it's definitely valid to support the game's theme with code. That's not calling anyone a bad RPer, it's just good game design.

[Rothgar]

I don't see a skill or attribute like this as forcing people to be good RPers, it's more about ingraining theme into game systems, which I tend to agree with is good game design - that's why the Order has a 'burn' command, for example. Stock ROM doesn't. If our theme wasn't about burning mages, the TI just wouldn't have that command.

Therefore, programming a fight factor, superstitious level, or even the piety of a given character is absolutely valid. The only reason we moved off piety is that it was implemented in a manner that wasn't really great for RP and had poor leverage in RP. Similarly, if we can't find a good, RP supportive way to implement something like this, we won't do it. That'd cause more harm than good, but it's definitely valid to support the game's theme with code. That's not calling anyone a bad RPer, it's just good game design.

In the past, I played combat MUD's that had a skill for what they called "reflexes," which was a passive benefit to Initiative (DnD terms, which was used to determine who went first in combat) that only came through actual, coded combat. Therefore, one could be very skilled in terms of combat, but not in Reflex, which means that they'd be beaten out (or at least, outmaneuvered) by people that have seen actual coded combat.

I don't know diddly about coding, but that might be something to investigate. Something to give Knights to allow for easier arrests if the Mage in question struggles or refuses the 'arrest' command that sets them apart from the standard mook that would attempt to arrest a person of interest.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

Hi. I'd like to chip in here briefly — unfortunately, I don't have time to read through ALL the five pages of discussion that's gone on here, so this point might have been raised already — but just as in equal sense it's poor RP to jump in and confront mages without an ICly life-threatening reason (ie, they're physically threatening a loved one or best friend), it's also poor RP to go on IC rants about the Knights are never around to catch mages just because Knight PCs can't always be online. Please keep in mind that cities are large places, feet are slow things, and while it might take only a few IRL minutes to send out a messenger to all online knights (or to the whole city!) and get a response, realistically there are going to be a ton of situations where Knights are simply too far away at a given time to get involved with a scene of magic.

I'm not saying don't criticize the Knights not doing their job — go for it, sure! — but do please respect the fact that Knights are only a small subset of the playerbase and that sometimes, even if we're visibly online, we're occupied either ICly or OOCly in a way that keeps us from always responding to messages. Knights do not need to drop scenes they are in just because there's a message about how there's a demon or mage been spotted in the Queen's while they're all the way out in ... anywhere, really. Please do be courteous.

Also, insulting or talking shit about the Knights isn't comparable to insulting or talking shit about modern-day law-keeping groups. The Knights are very much a subset of the Order, and insulting them can very much been seen as a heresy as any good Davite would understand and borderline worship the dangers the Knights subject themselves to by willingly dealing with manifestations of the Taint at the very real risk of their immortal soul. Again, this isn't to say "Don't do this" but instead "Please remember this is a game about consequence."

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

Also, to Galen's idea: I actually really like the idea behind it: make Mages scarier for normal people to face but negate much of that scariness for Knights. This could be something as simple as buffing the damage and terror of magic upwards, but providing a buff for Knights (or Orderites in general) which counteracts that buff for them. It could very easily be ICly explainable, too: the Knights and Inquisitors have access to a bevy of information, such as the capacity of spells and the nature of mages, that other guilds simply do not have. While anyone can pick up a sword and swing it around and get fairly good at it without much, if any, pointed training, that can't be said to be the same about the capacity of a mage to use certain spells in certain situations. You either have access to that information (via the Orderite Vaults) or you do not. No skill required.