[Poll] Familiarity (RPxp) Required for Finish

[Kinaed]

Just a note - there is a command (and always has been) to check if your finish will go through prior to initiating a PK. It is "Finish view <name>".

[Zeita]

I don't believe that familiarity should be required.

TI bills itself (on mud connector) as a dark fantasy setting, and one of the cornerstones of that particular sub-genre is that life is cheap and could end at a snap of the fingers. This is opposed to a more heroic fantasy setting, where the PCs are expected to be heroes. I think that the lower degree of safety would help to contribute to the theme. I find that I generally agree with Voxumo's statement that TI is too safe; people are too comfortable and when people get comfortable, they get lazy. When people get lazy, it lowers the quality of RP in general, as there are no stakes involved higher than what flavour cupcake to eat. This general dilution of the theme, has, in part (there are other things that go into it, so it isn't solely that) led to my personal withdrawal from TI in recent months.

If there is concern about murderers being motivated by OOC or by random whims, (which isn't invalid); maintain or strengthen the requirements around cnotes before killing. Perhaps change the requirements and expectations placed upon the would be killer, so that a higher degree is asked for, or perhaps requires a staff confirmation. Possibly have pkill requests go into the same staff queue as recs, etc, so that they're seen easily and quickly by all staff.

[Voxumo]

I don't believe that familiarity should be required.

TI bills itself (on mud connector) as a dark fantasy setting, and one of the cornerstones of that particular sub-genre is that life is cheap and could end at a snap of the fingers. This is opposed to a more heroic fantasy setting, where the PCs are expected to be heroes. I think that the lower degree of safety would help to contribute to the theme. I find that I generally agree with Voxumo's statement that TI is too safe; people are too comfortable and when people get comfortable, they get lazy. When people get lazy, it lowers the quality of RP in general, as there are no stakes involved higher than what flavour cupcake to eat. This general dilution of the theme, has, in part (there are other things that go into it, so it isn't solely that) led to my personal withdrawal from TI in recent months.

Exactly. You managed to say what I was trying to say in a far better manner. I can also confirm from speaking with at least two older players who no longer play anymore that the shift in the danger level of TI is a large part of the reason they left, as it just no longer held their interest, as they didn't join for tavern rp. And mind you these two players were not villian types but typically heroes or rogue heroes.

If there is concern about murderers being motivated by OOC or by random whims, (which isn't invalid); maintain or strengthen the requirements around cnotes before killing. Perhaps change the requirements and expectations placed upon the would be killer, so that a higher degree is asked for, or perhaps requires a staff confirmation. Possibly have pkill requests go into the same staff queue as recs, etc, so that they're seen easily and quickly by all staff.

You know, cnotes already have to be in place 24 hours in advance for a murder/pkill, I don't think it would be that hard to make it a request type of thing similar to the execution command where you have to include what cnote is prevalent to the execution.

[myarta]

I personally haven't played for a great deal of time overall, but I have yet to feel bored with TI being too safe and wanting to leave as a result. If anything, threads like this make me concerned that it will become less safe, which would reduce my enjoyment of playing, since I lean towards the builder archetype and very far to the single / long-lived char preference. Perhaps it just takes more time playing, like many of you veterans I esteem, before this feeling of ennui that nothing you do matters since it's all same old same old in happyville sets in? Or are we dealing with different goals / archetypes clashing as people want different things entirely out of the game?

[Starstarfish]

Maybe Southside needs to start a Thunderdome. And I'm only half joking. I sort of feel like Myarta, that different people play for different reasons or different thrills. Maybe the way to handle that is to have more venues/plots/stories for people who want to have more dangerous situations can do that with others of similar desire.

Sometimes I want different types of RP on different characters, and I expressed this already to staff so won't totally rehash but, there's all kinds of ways to make yourself interesting without death being your only motivator. And you can be lazy as a killer PC too, watch any bad 80s horror flick about totally one dimensional killers with zero character development. Get back to what motivates them - greed? ambition? jealousy? love? hatred? religious zeal?

[Limonade]

I forget how I meant to start this, and I have about twelve points to make, so I will start by reiterating that there is definitely not enough grimness and dying around. At least not in the way which is advertised by the game. To be entirely honest, I think what this boils down to is a lack of dynamism which I assume everyone else is feeling; easy dying is kind of an easy, brutal way to remedy this, given that the game seems sort of geared toward shorter character life spans (500 hr memorial, death xp, low skill mastery levels, etc.), it should, by all rights, be easy to out a villain/maniac and use all that XP and the QP from recommendations to do it all over again and better!

I mean, that's all in theory, but it's a nice idea. Truth be told, it doesn't really currently feel like the time it gets to become established makes all of that worthwhile; it's kind of chafing to die without accomplishing anything, let alone doing it several times in a row, just because you are the weakest link. If we want that sort of dynamism, we would probably have to make a lot of other dynamic concessions so that matters don't turn into a cabal of oldbies/established characters picking away at weaklings and outliers out of boredom or to grind up magecraft (or what have you). If we'd be doing that, then definitely, it should be a lot easier to die. This is sort of the other side of my point about character attachment; if it weren't so painstaking to get things done, it would feel a lot less shitty to see one's character die, even in the most absurd sequence of events (and subsequently, people would be less weird about getting back on the proverbial horse).

That said, I get that ra-death! is not everyone's cup of tea, and I posit that there are a bunch of ways to make the atmosphere grittier, or at least interesting in a way that makes things more engaging. PK, while absolutely dynamic, is also kind of an unimaginative shakeup, and while it's appropriate in a thousand situations, it's also kind of telling: removing familiarity is a pretty clear message that we find it appropriate to PK people just because we don't enjoy/want to RP with them, which is, y'know, that.

Essentially, we - as always - have to toe the balance between being exciting and not being total assholes, to foster a not-safe-but-not-offputting environment to operate in. Beyond everyone dying (which, again, big fan), I think we mostly need things to do. I'm sure somewhere out on grid, something super exciting and worth knowing about is happening, but there is no better way to focus on unimportant stuff than for people to have nothing better to do. Teatime at Miss Rachele's is all fine and dandy if it's as respite from horrible magery, but doing it every day does not an exciting story make. It kind of sounds right now like people have to feel habilitated to shake things up (you know what's awesome and gets no love: the Storyteller system) or for someone to do it for us.

[Voxumo]

Allow me to say this one, little thing. I have been playing for 4 years as of last November. In that time I have played 25 different characters, 14 of which were mages. Back in the day when the game was far more dangerous, I felt it was incredibly easy to make a character that did not have to be "Established" yet was able to get stuff done, be it good or evil. Why? Because the setting allowed for it to be easier, people didn't seem so gungo and snuffing every little act of evil. Back then it was truly about telling a story.

I had a reeve who was proconsul. He had a particularly annoying and potentially magey underling. He was powerless to truly do anything about them as they brown-nosed their way in with powerful individuals. What did my reeve do? He made a deal with the brotherhood, in exchange for allowing them to have some... time with a current reeve prisoner, they would take care of the underling. Everything worked out as it should have, though it still ended up with my character's death when it was discovered. But the death felt worth it.

Would such a thing be possible in this current timeframe? Not at all in my personal opinion, because everyone's too damn protective of their characters to take risks. I had a mage who slowly awakened enough mages to form their own covenant, and with that covenant they challenged the might of the manus for leadership, only for them to turn on her at the last moment. Would this be possible with today's mages? Not in the slightest.

The point I am trying to make, is that when death is a common occurrence, people are more willing to take risks, as they don't expect their characters to last long. This makes for the best rp, because it brings people out of their comfort zones. You don't have to be some old, established character to make an impact, you just have to be creative and willing to put your character on the line.

[Lei]

I'll pipe in real quick: more danger please.

The 'finish' helpfile has been recently updated to allow for waivers of familiarity requirements under the right set of circumstances. That's a great change! An assassin hired by one character to bump off another character they've never met shouldn't have to be familiar with the victim, and hopefully this potential for circumventing familiarity will wholly support those instances and others like them.

I still voted to strike the requirement entirely, for more reasons than I can punch out on my cell phone during this ten min break at work, but this is what I consider a step in the right direction for this MUD.

[Azi]

I'm surprised people are feeling a lack of danger! Please take some of mine. ;(

I'm a typical crafter whose preferred playstyle is descing, stringing, throwing events, and low-stakes conflict, and it's feeling a little too intense way too fast for me (I expect it on my knight, but I'm speaking for the rest). I know I'm the one who advocated for more antagonism back-when, but ideally there's a slow ramp up with plenty of RP between "nothing is going on" and "buy six phome guards and don't ever leave if you want to finish descing it."

That said, I get that ra-death! is not everyone's cup of tea, and I posit that there are a bunch of ways to make the atmosphere grittier, or at least interesting in a way that makes things more engaging. PK, while absolutely dynamic, is also kind of an unimaginative shakeup, and while it's appropriate in a thousand situations, it's also kind of telling: removing familiarity is a pretty clear message that we find it appropriate to PK people just because we don't enjoy/want to RP with them, which is, y'know, that.

I like Limonade's take, and I think there are more ways to make it grittier and bloodier (STs, staff plots, NPCs - remember the White Flame?) without making it so some players have to regularly eat the loss of characters they never get to realize and don't get to write for again (I also agree I'd be willing to dump mine quicker if it didn't take actual years to enjoy some of the fun things that other players get to do/have).

[Starstarfish]

buy six phome guards and don't ever leave if you want to finish descing it."

This is my fear. That what you'll have then is that the "disposables" will end up being the new players and those with less QP to afford having 5 people to keep them safe.
Because I'll say this my first PC was basically fake arrested (AKA personal impersonating the authorities) the very first night I played the game with any earnest (besides chargen etc). And the -risk- was thrilling but I had a basic hope that that wouldn't be it right there. But if I logged in and the first time and got killed? If I put time and effort and heart into making up a characters background time and again to see them toasted by some Assassin I'd never met randomly? Yeah, I wouldn't play, honestly.

And I've played games where people have said the same thing. Too much death and life just feels cheap and pointless. There's no reason to build a shop, there's no reason to get a job, there's no reason to invest in your character at all. Not everyone meets endless, pointless death with excitement. But the suggestion is always made that those who enjoy PK are better roleplayers, and over 17 years it's a suggestion that honesty, gets kind of old.

I like Limonade's take, and I think there are more ways to make it grittier and bloodier (STs, staff plots, NPCs - remember the White Flame?) without making it so some players have to regularly eat the loss of characters they never get to realize and don't get to write for again (I also agree I'd be willing to dump mine quicker if it didn't take actual years to enjoy some of the fun things that other players do). It feels like we're missing a lot in between zero and PK.

And honestly, even if it's just a random assassination, shouldn't a good assassin spend sometime following their victim, learning their routine, following them? I mean, does every assassin who considers a job automatically do it? They don't like Dexter it to consider if this guy/gal/prize cow should get killed?

You can do a pvent and for only 300 rpxp get a QP put any amount to kill someone is too much? What? Shouldn't there be at least a bare minimum expectation of what happens in the scene of the actual death? I mean, I'm thinking at least 300 rpxp level, as I'm hoping people aren't going through a PK with the bare minimum just to tick the attack emote requirements. Because honestly, if a death scene you are offering another player wouldn't fall into the arguable "3 QP single player effect" as on the recommend list, how are we arguing that PK is so wonderful for RP?

Because a cnote doesn't fix if the death itself is six weak emotes and you are dead. That's just painful.