The future of whoinvis

[Lei]

I like whoinvis just as it is. I don't think playing the game incognito requires any justification whatsoever.

Does anyone else remember a time in this game when who only listed how many players were online and didn't give any names at all? I feel like that's the default foR TI: nobody is required to announce their presence, but should they want to, by leaving whoinvis off, then they can.

I'd also like to see this subject polled -- oftentimes folks feel a certain way about a matter but don't vocalize it here in the debate beyond a vote.

[Temi]

I use whoinvis for my mostly predictable characters when they are doing something shady and unpredictable, so that people don't see them on who, check in their usual places, and get suspicious. It's generally for a single scene at a time and, I think, helps to reduce the temptation to wonder about what they are doing.

I use the who list to determine if I should look for people or send messengers, because ICly, characters are always somewhere on grid, but since this is a game, they stop being anywhere when they aren't logged in, and there is no amount of searching that can find someone offline. It's pointless to try. I especially like this for guildleaders that I may have business with, because there is some expectation of accessibility that RL schedules can get in the way of. I also like to use the who list for inspiration of people that I may have IC interactions with, but may not be close enough with to know their schedule to have any idea when would be a good time to send a messenger. It helps to cut down on the frustration of mismatched RL schedules.

[Kuzco]

I like whoinvis with the latest change.
I agree with what was said by Voxumo (sometimes I just want quiet RP) and Puciek (automatic toggle off at login allows others to determine whether someone is just hiding or has quitted altogether).
I think it should be upheld to prevent meta and to give characters privacy. As it is, it's the most logical compromise. Perhaps a timed, periodic reminder can be added? Like casinos asking you once a day if you have played enough? "You have been whoinvis for a while, perhaps it's time to turn it off?"

[Percival]

I'm in favour of players being visible when they log in (as it is now). I was guilty of leaving whoinvis on when I didn't mean to.

I think whoinvis is still an important aspect of the game to avoid metagaming (i.e. there are three people online and two are knights meeting with the Tenebrae)

Doubly so for mages. While the rules state you can't use metagaming or the WHO list to deduce who someone is, the rules also state that if someone discovers you're a mage you just have to accept it:

From HELP POLICY MAGES AND OTHER
"...understand that there's usually very little we can or will do to protect you from the abuse of OOC information. If it gets out OOCly that you're a mage (or whatever it is that you are), you have the burden of proof (see help Burden of Proof) that someone has gotten their information OOCly."

[Puciek]

I'm in favour of players being visible when they log in (as it is now). I was guilty of leaving whoinvis on when I didn't mean to.

I think whoinvis is still an important aspect of the game to avoid metagaming (i.e. there are three people online and two are knights meeting with the Tenebrae)

Doubly so for mages. While the rules state you can't use metagaming or the WHO list to deduce who someone is, the rules also state that if someone discovers you're a mage you just have to accept it:

From HELP POLICY MAGES AND OTHER
"...understand that there's usually very little we can or will do to protect you from the abuse of OOC information. If it gets out OOCly that you're a mage (or whatever it is that you are), you have the burden of proof (see help Burden of Proof) that someone has gotten their information OOCly."

This is an old helpfile and clearly could use a rewrite as it's point is, if I understand it correctly, is to underline the dangers of rolling a mage/app-in characters, and that if by some OOC slip (be it a game bug or something else) it will become known that you are a mage, it will make your life that much harder as some people may then play on this information even if they shouldn't. It's a simple reality of humans that we cannot just wipe that information away and it will linger in your mind, potentially influencing your IC decisions, which is why there is help cnote policy where you have to explain all sort of deductions and important discoveries - like how your character figured out that X is a mage. And if that is missing, the player may get in trouble.

So just because you can, with help of who list, figure out who the mage is it doesn't translate to using this information icly at all. The same applies to any other secrets, they must have IC backing that explains how your character figured it out. And if you suspect that someone found through OOC means, it never hurts to let staff know and let them make sure it's all up to scratch.

[Voxumo]

Honestly the arguments several people are providing for why whoinvis should not be around are not very convincing and rely alot on using ooc info to benefit them icly... Which is metagaming is it not? Or is it only metagaming when the "Villains" use it?

The reason for whoinvis in the first place was on request of knights so mages won't be able to decide, by use of who, if it's safe or not to go and do the evil deeds (see no knights online, go and do evil etc), the use of it by criminals was not the intent.

I mean if this true, it seems like the people who wanted it in the first place are just upset that their "enemies" are using it for the very same reason they used it in the first place.

As I commented in the ooc chat, someone who wanted to meet with me despite my being whoinvis often sent me an anonymous board note asking if I could hop off whoinvis. It took a simple message for me to go "Yeah sure, didn't know you were needing me." Like really, how often do people try to just contact the person? Something tells me not often. Not everyone is a massive jerk who will ignore at all possible avenues.

[Rabek]

I use the who list to determine if I should look for people or send messengers, because ICly, characters are always somewhere on grid, but since this is a game, they stop being anywhere when they aren't logged in, and there is no amount of searching that can find someone offline. It's pointless to try.

This seems to be one of the lingering concerns from people who aren't so into the idea of whoinvis. In fact, I heard a similar concern from a player a few days before the OOC meeting.

The issues with whoinvis seem to be a symptom of a greater issue; that messengers, certain spells, etc, all require knowing whether the person you're targeting is online before you use them.

Could it be discussed whether it's feasible to instead, maybe, enable these commands to target offline people in some fashion? Maybe have them be delivered when next they log on, or in the case of messengers shorten the timer for the 'could not be delivered' message to show up (whether they're online and not responding or offline)? I don't know if that's the best solution or not, but the issue I keep seeing is "I can't get a hold of people that I need to in order to advance my character's story because they're always whoinvis." Maybe this could be addressed from the "can't get a hold of people" side rather than the "whoinvis" side, since a lot of people seem to want to keep whoinvis where it is.

Not that I'm personally terribly convinced by criminals on the run using it to avoid getting caught by always appearing offline and GLs using it to avoid doing their job, but maybe this direction could make everyone happy.

[Kinaed]

That policy help file with Burden of Proof is out of date - it was written before cnotes. Now the burden of proof is on players using information ICly because they have an obligation to cnote when they learn someone is a mage. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll get the help file fixed.

In the meantime, sure I can create a poll regarding whoinvis.

[Puciek]

Honestly the arguments several people are providing for why whoinvis should not be around are not very convincing and rely alot on using ooc info to benefit them icly... Which is metagaming is it not? Or is it only metagaming when the "Villains" use it?

The reason for whoinvis in the first place was on request of knights so mages won't be able to decide, by use of who, if it's safe or not to go and do the evil deeds (see no knights online, go and do evil etc), the use of it by criminals was not the intent.

I mean if this true, it seems like the people who wanted it in the first place are just upset that their "enemies" are using it for the very same reason they used it in the first place.

As I commented in the ooc chat, someone who wanted to meet with me despite my being whoinvis often sent me an anonymous board note asking if I could hop off whoinvis. It took a simple message for me to go "Yeah sure, didn't know you were needing me." Like really, how often do people try to just contact the person? Something tells me not often. Not everyone is a massive jerk who will ignore at all possible avenues.

Not every use of OOC to facilitate IC is automatically metagaming. Who/where/whois are perfect examples of OOC info that we use to keep the RP going, and that absolutely is not metagaming - whether it's done by baddies or goodies.

And no, the way it's used for permanent living under is not how it was used by knights at all. It wasn't created so they won't be reachable for RP, but so mages will not schedule evildoing around available knights, severely reducing their risks as a result. It's not even similar to a scenario where someone who is sought for RP, pleasant or not, uses whoinvis to make that impossible and effectively denying others the opportunity.

Yes, pboard can be used to arrange rp with those people, sometimes they play along and sometimes they just ignore them. But when it's used it gives the whoinvis party full control about where, when and how the scenes will go down by controlling when he is "findable". And last time I checked TI is a non-consensual game, and that goes both ways, and having that upper hand is very often important.

Then there is also a question of why would you be on whoinvis in the first place if a mention of you flipping it off will, well take you out of it? Either you had a valid reason to hide from the player base (and will not come out of it upon request) or I am missing the reason behind being whoinvis in the first place.

[Starstarfish]

But when it's used it gives the whoinvis party full control about where, when and how the scenes will go down by controlling when he is "findable". And last time I checked TI is a non-consensual game, and that goes both ways, and having that upper hand is very often important.

Correct. And they can simply choose to pretend they are always "not available" by going on Whoinvis and then freely RP with others with people who are looking for you non the wiser. Whoinvis seems currently this sort of blank against the non-consent idea of the game. As going on Whoinvis is effective the "Do not Consent" setting to people knowing you are available for RP.

If you want to get private RP, go somewhere private and turn off WhereRP and go deaf to tells and don't receive messengers. You can accomplish all those things now without Whoinvis.

You should not rely on an OOC mechanic - going Whoinvis to get away with nefarious things on-grid. If people are looking for you, and you use Whoinvis to hide from the authorities by pretending you aren't playing, you are using an OOC mechanic to knowingly attempt to avoid IC consequences. Part of being an antagonist in the many shades that can mean is the risk of having trouble.

Also some people freely say they won't OOCly coordinate play scenes, so ... if they hide on Whoinvis and won't coordinate ... what does one do?