New Player Survey pt. 2

[Kinaed]

Firstly, I'd like to say that I am deeply appreciative of Corolinth's "new player eyes" on the subject.

I agree with Yayinne top to bottom about the practical effects of the rule and how it should be treated. I have also experienced people just turn around and walk out of RP with me and been like "Wow, would you really do that irl, to a friend or acquaintance? Is it just the interpretation that this scene is on a game and therefore the people you're RPing with aren't real and won't react to that?"

This said, fundamentally, I don't see how people will get to the chance to view and experience that noble rule the way a real player does if they're scared off first thing by it. Also, it's wild how many people do exactly what Yayinne says in #2 of her statement - stand up in a crowded bar and bow and 'my lady' the heck out of a noble entering who wouldn't otherwise know they exist, actually creating the situation of engagement in an unrealistic manner that nobles genuinely do find to be a headache.

On the flip side, I do also sometimes get impatient about leaving and stifle my waiting for their turn because one does -not- fidget and look like they'd like to be doing anything but listening to the noble they're talking to prattle on, right? :)

Overall, I think I side with -modifying-, if not outright removing this little tidbit of culture. I just haven't gotten around to it because I'm Mrs. Busypants the Torn-in-Many-Directions.

[Eris]

I thought I'd weigh in on this as the player behind the Queen (hi!) with my perspective from the other side of the fence.

I have to say that I agree with Yayinne 100%; I think that there's a lot of room for practicality and common sense on the point of noble courtesy. I very often walk into places that are meant to be heavily populated with NPCs, and immediately have everyone notice my entrance (i.e. Church Square/Queen's tavern, etc.). In these scenarios, my character wouldn't lift an eyebrow at a group of people on the other side of the room failing to notice her entrance until she'd made her presence clear, but I see that situation as being more realistic because, in real life, you wouldn't really notice someone's approach until they pointed themselves out to you. I know that I don't usually recognise someone on the street right away until they walk up to me or find some way to make themselves known, especially if I'm distracted by something else.

On leaving the room, I've never refused to allow someone to leave ICly or held them back, especially if there's some OOC reason that they've had to leave. In general, I don't care much about being asked permission to leave unless I'm -directly engaged- with the person in question. But, as Kinaed points out, isn't that just a matter of consideration, no matter who your partner is? I think that (excepting emergencies, in which case it's perfectly acceptable to just log out or run) this could be easily fixed by allowing yourself enough time for a final round or two of emotes before leaving the room. On the other hand, if someone has been idle for more than 10 minutes without emoting, and there's no sign of life from them, I usually just send a quick apology in a tell and leave. As a member of the nobility, I certainly don't mind it OOC, and understand that people have busy lives.

On an OOC level, as well, it's bloody hard to juggle eight or nine people all bowing and saying hello to you at the same time; on the same hand, it can be really jarring in RP if someone that I haven't traded a word with for the duration of my time in the room suddenly asks my permission to leave.

So, in conclusion, I'd say that the whole matter isn't really about noble courtesy in general; worry about it if you're directly engaged with that person, but otherwise, give yourself enough time to make a graceful (and realistic!) exit, and be considerate of the other people in the scene by allowing them a realistic amount of time to respond properly to the stuff you send out ICly.

[Corolinth]

Okay, so apparently I lied and hadn't said my peace. Actually, there are a few things that popped up which I'd like to clarify.

Also, it's wild how many people do exactly what Yayinne says in #2 of her statement - stand up in a crowded bar and bow and 'my lady' the heck out of a noble entering who wouldn't otherwise know they exist

This is the rule in the help file. When a noble walks in, you do this. It doesn't matter what would be realistic in character. I am playing a game, and this is one of the rules.

I very often walk into places that are meant to be heavily populated with NPCs, and immediately have everyone notice my entrance (i.e. Church Square/Queen's tavern, etc.).

You are the Queen, not the Tenebrae of the Brotherhood. Your presence anywhere is extremely disruptive. People notice you walking into a room. Royalty and nobility have buglers that announce their arrival. Then there are the sumptuary laws that prevent anyone else from dressing in a manner that might get confused with you. This isn't like the President of the United States who, for the most part, dresses like a normal guy - and he still stands out, because there are those two guys in the double-breasted suits with him.

Then there's the fact that you're a PC, and are automatically more interesting to other PCs than the NPCs by virtue of being a real person. That's just how games work. It's certainly a break from character, but it's as old as the gaming hobby itself. The PCs are just more interesting, because they're avatars for real people.

I get it. I see where you're coming from, but you're essentially suggesting that I should ignore you because I'm too distracted by these NPCs who don't even exist on the grid. Their existence is merely implied. The ones that do exist as mobs can't really be interacted with, and aren't very interesting. The extent to which I can interact with them is to buy stuff from a shopkeeper, or murder homeless people in the south side. When that gets boring, I'm going to start conveniently "noticing" certain characters every time we're in the same area. That those characters just happen to be the same ones driven by players is sheer coincidence.

On an OOC level, as well, it's bloody hard to juggle eight or nine people all bowing and saying hello to you at the same time; on the same hand, it can be really jarring in RP if someone that I haven't traded a word with for the duration of my time in the room suddenly asks my permission to leave.

It may be hard to juggle all of those people, but the rules say they have to do it. Likewise, I'm sure it is jarring if someone you haven't traded a word with suddenly asks permission to leave, but again, the rules say they have to do it. Now you understand where I'm coming from. The rules are creating a jarring experience for you that's difficult to deal with.

So, in conclusion, I'd say that the whole matter isn't really about noble courtesy in general; worry about it if you're directly engaged with that person, but otherwise, give yourself enough time to make a graceful (and realistic!) exit, and be considerate of the other people in the scene by allowing them a realistic amount of time to respond properly to the stuff you send out ICly.

Newbies DO tend to walk out of scenes in the middle of them - and for that reason they need to be told that they shouldn't, especially around nobles.

I agree with Yayinne top to bottom about the practical effects of the rule and how it should be treated. I have also experienced people just turn around and walk out of RP with me and been like "Wow, would you really do that irl, to a friend or acquaintance? Is it just the interpretation that this scene is on a game and therefore the people you're RPing with aren't real and won't react to that?"

All of this is perfectly reasonable. However, that isn't what the helpfile says. The helpfile outlines "the rules" for dealing with nobles. If your defense of the nobility rules is showing proper courtesy to other players, than my rebuttal is: What makes the players of the nobility special? Why shouldn't I be showing that same courtesy to everyone else? Now that we're talking about out of character courtesy towards the player, and you're essentially telling me that the Queen's player or the Baron's player deserves more courtesy than the player of a freeman Reeve. I understand that Lithmore is not an egalitarian society, and that some characters are just above others. The nobility are better than everyone else. That is not the case for the players, who by and large live in free societies. Every player deserves to have someone wrap things up and say their farewells, rather than just up and bounce from the scene without even a wave or the middle finger.

I don't think you mean it that way, that the noble players are special, but that's the impression the nobility rules gives off. I believe you. I believe that you're looking to have all the players be courteous and respectful of everyone else's role-playing experience. So rewrite the rules to say that.

[Lei]

Gotta say, this guys has some really good points.

[Eris]

I don't think that anyone's actually disagreeing with you in principle, Corolinth, but perhaps it's a matter of to what extreme the pbase in general decides to take the rules. In the helpfile, the rules are very rigid, yes; in reality, however, this current pbase is fairly lenient in how they interpret them.

I'd disagree on the point about the NPC population, however: it IS always there, and there are many people who DO interact with it. We have several moderators that can affect roleplay: time, weather, and seasons, for example. This will all affect the density of any one area. We're also in a capital city, so there's meant to be a fairly large population; all these things will modify a scene set-up. Generally, I'll assume that the Church Square (for example) is fairly crowded unless there's a blizzard/it's the middle of the night/something major has happened. I'm not trying to diminish your argument, but I'm of the opinion that interacting with the NPC population by including them in your emotes generally makes for more colourful RP, and is an important aspect of gameplay, along with other uncoded, but moderately reasonable assumptions you can make. Yayinne's RP is a brilliant example of how this can be executed. I'd absolutely agree that the presence of the Queen is disruptive; however, this is a phenomenon experienced by many a player with a noble character (i.e. everyone noticing when they walk into a room), and I've noticed it even before my character's ascent into royalty. I think it goes a little deeper than the shine of royalty.

I don't think that the rules state that the players of nobility are particularly special; these rules mandate what IC relationships different social classes are the norm within the theme of the game. I can understand where you're coming from, but ultimately, we're all players who are responsible for our character's story. I think that some reciprocal understanding, practicality, and some consideration on both sides to make sure that everyone's comfortable in the scene their playing, including what time limit they want to impose on its length. I think that these are generally unspoken rules in the roleplaying community; perhaps this just needs to be enforced a little more strictly.

I want to put in that I think you make some excellent points, and I very much value your point of view. I'm a very great advocate of all players on the MUD being able to RP with each other, and to everyone's benefit, enjoyment, and comfort; if you have any ideas about ways that I could facilitate this on an IC level, then I'd be most happy to work out events or avenues of communication!

[Kinaed]

I'd like to point out that HELP COURTESY is not a rule help file. Only HELP RULES and all help files listed under HELP POLICY are game rules.

Cultural help files are information about culture and social etiquette as opposed to a game rule. Game rules are rules that staff members enforce. Social rules are a matter of IC standards of behavior. It's perfectly okay to be rude or buck social mores without getting staff involved. It may irritate people who are expecting tribute, but that may be also a character's intention. However, if players don't do the required things to execute a valid PK when PKing, for example, the staff will become involved. That's a real rule.

Also the point of courtesy in question is NOT that you must ask permission to leave at all times. It says (cut and paste):

Code: Select all

     4) When one wishes to leave a noble's presence, one should ask for leave
        under the following conditions:
 
                 a) When in direct communication with the noble.
                 b) When you and the noble are the only two people present, whether
                    or not communicating with them.

            Note: If given an order or request requiring one to leave, it is
                  courteous (and often simply intelligent) to ask if the noble
                  requires anything else before doing so, but one does not need
                  to ask to be excused as the implication resides in the order.

The help file does say that if a noble enters, others should acknowledge them - but given it's an RP game, it'd be most reasonable for people to actually check on the reality of the situation "I'm -supposed- to bow to an entering noble, but would my character notice them? Nah, my back is to the door." and go with the appropriate, realistic RP result.

I DO find it jarring that people follow these "help files" with more gusto and heart than the fundamental rules of RP and what it is - a simulation of reality in a simulated world. We're an RP game, afterall. It's okay to, and even highly preferred by most that people RP realistically in all situations than hold to using their OOC knowledge/observation skills/game-view to play.

This said - I'll probably review and change that part of the culture as mentioned earlier as it is apparently more trouble than value from various perspectives. I've seen issues demonstrated in this thread, but I have not seen any deep seeded value that isn't gleaned from the other rules in the help courtesy file.

[Empheba]

@Corolinth

You make some very good points. I must admit that as a newbie to TI (not that long ago), I did not at all react in the same way to reading the help files, but maybe that's just me being lax about rules or something ... :)

I can see that reading all those files as tabletop-style game rules would be jarring. As I always assumed and Kinaed also points out, in-game-world conventions and cultural instructions are not "rules" in a "gamey" sense - entire game concepts may be built around breaking such conventions. Of course for a newcomer to a game so prominently featuring PC reprercussions, death and burnings this might not be a comfort ...

I guess the only true help here would be a header separating the most confusing entries from one another:
This help file outlines Out-of-character game rules you as a PLAYER are expected to follow.
vs something like
This help file outlines an In-Character guide. You are expected to act (or not) on it as befits the scene, your character concept and common sense as role player.

I get it. I see where you're coming from, but you're essentially suggesting that I should ignore you because I'm too distracted by these NPCs who don't even exist on the grid. Their existence is merely implied. The ones that do exist as mobs can't really be interacted with, and aren't very interesting. The extent to which I can interact with them is to buy stuff from a shopkeeper, or murder homeless people in the south side. When that gets boring, I'm going to start conveniently "noticing" certain characters every time we're in the same area. That those characters just happen to be the same ones driven by players is sheer coincidence.

In order to instill RP, "accidentally" noticing that single other PC also in a crowded room of people is indeed part of the way to get a scene going. And I must agree that should the Queen walk into a common tavern, her presence should spread like wildfire throughout the place (sorry Eris).
But apart from that, I respectfully disagree. NPCs and vNPCs in crowded places make for excellent props to your roleplay, and if I'm already involved in talking to PCs in a large, crowded bar I won't assume to always acknowledge and respond to every person walking in or already existing in the room. I've found this to much be a matter of player style though.
.
Empheba

[Kinaed]

Help Courtesy got a makeover to take this conversation into account as well as some new social theme additions (such as Order of Precedence) which came later. After all, the last time that help file was edited before today was 2005!

I hope the changes are beneficial and everyone enjoys them. :)

[Corolinth]

On the subject of NPCs distracting one's attention, I would bring up the following point:

Role-playing games are a social hobby. It is interactive storytelling, and one of the big draws is interacting with other people. It is a shared endeavor. You mention the use of NPCs as props, and that's all well and good, but they are props for use in interacting with other players. If any of us were looking to interact with NPCs all day, we would be writing a novel, or perhaps playing a video game.

To put it plainly, we are not playing for the NPCs. They are not terribly interesting, except in whatever manner the PCs have made them. When you use these NPCs as props for your role-playing, they are not interesting by themselves. If you are removed from the scene, those NPCs go back to being lifeless bits of data until some other player seizes upon them. It is therefore the players that are interesting.

While you can come up with reasonable arguments for why one character may fail to notice someone in a crowded bar, you can not reasonably expect the players to pass up the chance to interact with one another. That's the entire reason they're playing in the first place. There is an implicit assumption that we are all looking to play the game with one another, and by our nature we are going to ignore such factors that run contrary to that.

[Empheba]

@Corolinth

No, you are absolutely correct that the meat of the game is Player-Player interaction. We go to quite large stretches in order to IC motivate why we talk to strangers in what is supposedly a crowded room.

I'm not saying that one should ignore other Players and just talk to NPCs/vNPCs. What I'm saying is that there are many other ways of setting off interaction than just walking into a room and saying "Hello" to people just because they happen to be in the same coded game location. I suspect we agree on this though, you just seem to take the discussion to its most extreme possible consequence.
.
Empheba