The Uncertain future of the Physicians

[Rabek]

The Physicians didn't even exist for the majority of TI's history. I wouldn't mind at all if we went back to that. My experiences with the guild, both as an insider and an outsider, have been utterly miserable.

I've also historically advocated for guildskills to be removed entirely and the enforcement of their knowledge being done entirely IC rather than with code.

All that said, this is ridiculous hyperbole and I really don't think this is going to be a problem for the physicians at all. You still have medicine, which is your job.

The old system was silly. The physicians liked to block any attempts at buying materials. If they didn't refuse outright, they decided to not answer letters, or answer and never follow up. The Physicians were bottlenecking half the game for no reason, and it didn't make sense IC or OOCly. This is hands-down an improvement, though I think it could have gone even further.

[Voxumo]

The old system was silly. The physicians liked to block any attempts at buying materials. If they didn't refuse outright, they decided to not answer letters, or answer and never follow up. The Physicians were bottlenecking half the game for no reason, and it didn't make sense IC or OOCly. This is hands-down an improvement, though I think it could have gone even further.

I have no idea what materials you are speaking of, and I feel like you're judging this on past gls, because lord knows there have been past gls of the physicians who did a terrible, terrible job of replying to mail, if they ever did at all. Though the last couple of gls have been more open with letters and replying.
And half the game is a far-fetched statement. If half the playerbase was dependent on herbalism, there's an issue. If somebody really wanted to learn herbalism previously, there was always the brotherhood. And icly it makes perfect sense for the physicians to restrict it when they could. There's a reason the physicians and brotherhood shared herbalism, and were the only guilds to share a guildskill. There were deadly aspects of herbalism, and laws were icly put into place that cracked down on poison.

Really it's no different than the order/knights restricting learning of the sword, or the merchants restricting any tradeskill. The only difference is more than the physicians and brotherhood wanted access to that guildskill.

[Starstarfish]

I don't disagree that Physicians should have a Guild skill to protect. I've never said the Physicians aren't an important Guild that provide an important service and important thematic RP.

However, as it stood Herbalism represented the ability to essentially be a crop farmer and the ability to make drugs and the ability to be a professional herbalist and the ability to be a perfumer in some ways. That's a lot of power for a single skill to cover. It was a skill that was too broad. It made no sense ICly that membership with the Physicians Guild could determine whether or not someone could successfully be a crop farmer. A job that most Gentry and/or Noble PCs thematically should want nothing to do with. It also makes no sense that again that your alternative if you wanted to be a farmer and had to be a thief to accomplish that.

Would I have necessarily split things the way they were, perhaps not neccessarily, - but Temi has even said that where exactly certain crafts are placed might be re-considered. There's also the offered opportunity for Physicians to come up with some new pondered Medicine-only crafts. Making some of the on grid healing items that are currently not craftable (IE - some of the healing kits for extensive wounds) is likely a place to start. Maybe suggest a command of some kind to actually do the bleedings that theme implies should be more popular and request they have an actual coded benefit. (I don't know - plus 1 to Con or a buff against disease or something for a time, even something basic like that would make people likely more willing to do it.)

And will more people know about drugs? Potentially. But that opens up RP for other people. Personal cooks - food tasters, going to places with a better rep. Does that trade some Physician RP for other opportunities, likely. But it allows people who want to be Physicians to be those people who legitimately want to dedicate to the kind of OOC research and knowledge it takes to RP well as a Physician based not on modern germ theory but on like Humorism and alternative medicine.

[Voxumo]

Ya know you actually reminded me of something. This takes away another frequent thing physicians had going for them. Oftentimes reeves and knights would come to the physicians when one of their own was poisoned, not necessarily lethal poisons but hindering poisons. I can think of several occasions where reeves and physicians had a pow-wow where we sat down and tried to think about what poison it could have been by the symptoms, and typically we'd then recommend a treatment, be it a coded remedy or rp remedy. That's essentially not needed anymore, if anyone can become a master poisonmaker and know the effects of poisons, and more importantly be able to detect poisons in food and drinks. And oftentimes physicians were only able to offer rp remedies for poisons, so there's no reason to come to physicians when suffering from poisons, except out of the kindness of people's hearts, and that's not something I'm willing to count on.

Also you don't need to be above 36 in herbalism to be a farmer, as none of the farming plants required skill above 36, neither did any of the concoctions related to said plants, such as bales of hay. Even brewers, a skill that is oddly enough often forgotten, didn't need to be above 36 to grow the plants needed. Cooks were the same way. Most plants they may use were below 36. I'll say it again, this change appears, to me, simply as an appeasement to the chandlers, the only skill that was hindered by herbalism being restricted. Brewers weren't up in arms about it... only chandlers. Physicians were up in arms about chandlers joining the physicians only for herbalism, but we were taking ic steps to solve that issue, ic steps that have been thrown out the window with this change.

And again the ability to make drugs and be a professional herbalist go hand in hand. Drugs/poisons are the exact same thing as medication, just with flipped effects. They target certain aspects of the body and mind, just typically in a negative fashion.

Nothing positive for the physicians came out of this change, whereas everyone else benefitted. This was a one-sided change.

[Famine]

Wait, I can make drugs too? This is so great. I foresee many sick people in your future doc, hold tight!

[Kinaed]

Yes, we have drugs as well as addiction code. Enjoy!

[Starstarfish]

so there's no reason to come to physicians when suffering from poisons, except out of the kindness of people's hearts, and that's not something I'm willing to count on.

Well except for that whole factor that's clearly laid out in the helpfile (though that might need to get updated) that having the Medicine skill helps the chance that the patient survives if the poison is deadly. If someone wants to take a 50/50 shot because they don't want to RP that's kind of on them, honestly. I mean with more people knowing poisons, isn't there also the chance ... more people get poisoned and need help?

Cooks were the same way. Most plants they may use were below 36.

Most, yes, all no - if you want to be a professional grandmaster cook and be able to offer any kind of competitive prices and quality compared to NPC shops - the Fine Spices (only a level 30 cooking skill) required for a great deal of the upper level cooking recipe uses Ginger and Cinnamon two things well above the 36 skill cut-off point.

Saffron the highest plant to grow currently on grid will be required at some point if you want to make things like the Curry recipe. Something that is basically impossible to get if you don't grow it yourself. And the price is prohibitive to buy from others. So this cloud of thought that chandlers were the only people who benefited or mentioned this to staff is false.

so there's no reason to come to physicians when suffering from poisons, except out of the kindness of people's hearts, and that's not something I'm willing to count on.

This could literally apply to most if not all support roles IC - ultimately, they rely on all of us collectively agreeing that the roles and theme of the game are important and being willing to give other people RP. And again, there are roles that rely on that fact that have zero coded way to enforce that on people. So ... I think going with Kinaed's ideas on the other discussion, we all need to work to support each other's stories. Code can't make people good RPers, honestly.

[Voxumo]

I'm just going to stop responding at this point. I'm clearly a minority, if a single person can even be a minority here and I'm just beating a dead horse that nobody cared about when it was living.

Though on a similar topic, I would like to propose an ic reason for this change, as there needs to be something for those of us affected by it to use as an rp starting point.

My proposition is a spoiled noble, maybe in vavard given recent political turmoil, got their undergarments in a twist when their local branch of physicians would not sell a remedy or drug to the noble due to them abusing it. This got the noble upset and using contacts he had, he proposed to the queen or queen's court that physicians hoarding remedies or recreational drugs was harmful to the economy, or some similar silver-tongue antics. Jist of it is he was successful and the queen or a representative reduced the authority the physicians had over said production. Now said noble can have a private herbalist fuel his addiction.

This provides an ic reason that doesn't point fingers, could be doable, and plays into the current political atmosphere of the game, IE Vavard not being happy and perhaps the queen just taking this action to keep vavard in check.

[Starstarfish]

Maybe ask if RPing with Guilded Physicians and/or rooms in the Madison can give some kind of RP bonus to encourage RP with Physicians?

[Starstarfish]

For what my vote counts, that sounds like an interesting plot hook, could write it up as a plot and submit it maybe?