Help taint seems like a command, part of a rather large system. Hard to draw complete conclusion just on that. And certainly will bring that on OOC chat today.BlackSoul566 wrote:The helpfile about Taint said that only certain spells make mages 'evil'. So if mages don't use those certain spells, I'd have to agree with Dice. There is no scientific law that says that all Mages turn evil, it's just a very, very common thing. Which, if you ask me, sounds better.
Why use magic?
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The difference here is the difference between what is IC belief and what's OOC fact, for lack of a better way to put it.
What you've said is definitely what is believed to be true by people in TI's world! The problem is that there is no supernatural impetus definitively making it so. TI doesn't like to answer the questions it poses in black and white - if magic 100% for real made mages evil, then the Order would be unequivocably right, which would really be a bad thing for RP. Instead, it's up in the air, in a shade of grey.
If you look at the history of PC mages caught and burned at the stake, it certainly looks as if most mages are evil and crazy, for example. So there's good evidence and good reason to believe this. But no, no mage is ever required to RP being evil from casting spells, whatever spell it is.
What you've said is definitely what is believed to be true by people in TI's world! The problem is that there is no supernatural impetus definitively making it so. TI doesn't like to answer the questions it poses in black and white - if magic 100% for real made mages evil, then the Order would be unequivocably right, which would really be a bad thing for RP. Instead, it's up in the air, in a shade of grey.
If you look at the history of PC mages caught and burned at the stake, it certainly looks as if most mages are evil and crazy, for example. So there's good evidence and good reason to believe this. But no, no mage is ever required to RP being evil from casting spells, whatever spell it is.
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Applesauce
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:13 pm
I guess I always read that file as "When people perform actions ... widely regarded as immoral," but upon further review it's true, the immoral bit seems specifically attached to the spell part, not the whole list.
So perhaps not all mages generate taint, and it's as equally vague as in previous incarnations when there was no such coded thing =)
So perhaps not all mages generate taint, and it's as equally vague as in previous incarnations when there was no such coded thing =)
A player sent me this thread asking me to weigh in, so apologies if I'm a bit late to the party.
Geras, who started this thread, did so long ago before several magic changes. That said, it is definitely by design that mages are combat-squishy and that magic is not combative. If magic was combative and designed to help a mage win a fight, the whole archetype of combative characters would be nerfed. Magic is cool, but mages simply shouldn't be better in a fight than players who tailor their characters and ICly train for combat day in and day out.
In the original thread, someone asked why knights would kill mages because "mages aren't codewise dangerous"... the answer seems obvious - because it's the Davite religion to believe mages are evil, and it's the theme of the game. Knight and mage conflict is a theme issue; it's part of the identity of the characters we're role-playing.
As to why mages cannot overthrow the Order, with the plot system, that's technically possible - however, realistically the politics of the game just don't happen at the "overthrow the kingdom's structure" level. The Cardinal, High Synod, and Queen are all NPCs that PCs just don't deal with. The RP isn't geared towards kingdom-wide plots, but rather city-wide plots with city systems and internal relationships being the main focus.
My understanding is that a large bulk of mages frequently use magic and find it useful. I've had feedback that most mages use magic daily because they get an IC advantage for doing so. Their IC advantage isn't about killing Inquisitors, however, it's about gathering information, controlling people's lives, having a leg up, etc. Just like any role, magery enriches the game experience by bringing certain themes to people's RP. These themes are no less valid than the themes brought to a player's RP if they choose to play a noble or any other role; just different.
When it comes to the question 'are mages evil by nature', there's only two answers that I think matter are: 1) thematically, members of the Davite faith think mages are evil, and 2) what is evil?
Geras, who started this thread, did so long ago before several magic changes. That said, it is definitely by design that mages are combat-squishy and that magic is not combative. If magic was combative and designed to help a mage win a fight, the whole archetype of combative characters would be nerfed. Magic is cool, but mages simply shouldn't be better in a fight than players who tailor their characters and ICly train for combat day in and day out.
In the original thread, someone asked why knights would kill mages because "mages aren't codewise dangerous"... the answer seems obvious - because it's the Davite religion to believe mages are evil, and it's the theme of the game. Knight and mage conflict is a theme issue; it's part of the identity of the characters we're role-playing.
As to why mages cannot overthrow the Order, with the plot system, that's technically possible - however, realistically the politics of the game just don't happen at the "overthrow the kingdom's structure" level. The Cardinal, High Synod, and Queen are all NPCs that PCs just don't deal with. The RP isn't geared towards kingdom-wide plots, but rather city-wide plots with city systems and internal relationships being the main focus.
My understanding is that a large bulk of mages frequently use magic and find it useful. I've had feedback that most mages use magic daily because they get an IC advantage for doing so. Their IC advantage isn't about killing Inquisitors, however, it's about gathering information, controlling people's lives, having a leg up, etc. Just like any role, magery enriches the game experience by bringing certain themes to people's RP. These themes are no less valid than the themes brought to a player's RP if they choose to play a noble or any other role; just different.
When it comes to the question 'are mages evil by nature', there's only two answers that I think matter are: 1) thematically, members of the Davite faith think mages are evil, and 2) what is evil?
Having played as both a Mage and a Knight, I'm fortunate enough to have been able to RP both sides of the MUD. I will say that, as Rothgar, it was always interesting to me to see how many Mages went down without a fight - I'm not certain if they'd already consigned themselves to their fates, or if they thought that they could somehow get out of it... But it's very interesting to see how many people simply assented to an arrest that they knew would, more then likely, end them. Or, at the very least, put an end to any interesting RP they might encounter.
As a Mage, I was very surprised at the... Paranoia? In the pbase. It's understandable - I've been sold out or fingered countless times for stuff that I may or may not have done, on countless characters. Often, it's ended in boring prison RP, or equally boring torture RP, but every now and again I manage to get someone that actually enjoys the banter back and forth between a condemned criminal and someone in a position of power within the justice system. Back to the point, however, on the Mage side (and on the Brotherhood side, as well), it truly amazes me how -many- people think that it's revolutionary or great RP to be a turncoat. Honestly, at this point, it's more surprising and refreshing to me to find a character that will stick by his/her friends and not sell them out for profit or freedom.
I'll safely say that after playing many classes and builds - Mage, non-Mage, Brotherhood, Reeves, combat-char, non-combat, builder, etc? I prefer non-mages. Don't get me wrong - mages have amazing utility spells. They're useful. On Curos, I used spells more or less all the time... They came in a ton of use for generating RP and making it appear as though I was more powerful then I actually was. That being said? My death XP earned me nearly 400k. I don't know the exact measurement, but I sunk a -ton- of RP and XP into Curos... For very, very little payoff. It was neat to be able to speak Eld fluently, sure. It was convenient to be able to read minds, yes. And I had a ton of fun becoming a shadow and exploring blocked-off regions of the map. But would I trade it for nearly one million XP of a combat character? Hell to the Arien no. With that amount of XP, I could have made one of the most powerful combat characters on the MUD and still had enough XP to play around with getting stats to befit such a character, and dabble in nearly every skill out there. With Curos, I had a utility character... That was overshadowed, more often then not, by "heroic" combat characters, swooping in to save the day with the zillions of skills they had at their disposal.
IMHO - and take it with a very, very large grain of salt - Mages are... Interesting. Fun to play. Certainly worth a shot. But because of the squish that they've got, because of the limited use of magic... I couldn't recommend one to someone looking to play the game for long. Using magic equals a brutal and efficient death. Period. Full stop. There's no Inquisitors here that would consider (In my experience) teaming up with mages - or those with (understandably) suspect amounts of knowledge on the subject of magics and the arcane. I also simply can't recall encountering a Knight willing to 'lose' RP with a Mage in combat - the idea that Rothgar has indeed 'lost' in RP to Mages makes a good many people balk at the idea of allowing such a thing. And, again - a grain of salt. It's been many moons since I've had anything to do with the Order (mostly because of OOC squeamishness, my own fault and no one elses), or the Knights on a regular basis. Even the Reeves, really, I've only played once before dropping, simply because there wasn't much back-and-forth between the Reeves/Brotherhood at all.
In conclusion, playing a Mage - or just about any 'evil' class - just isn't worth it, in my opinion. You can either choose the candle that burns twice as bright (often, it doesnt), or the one that burns steady and boring, but oft times allows opportunities to burn just as bright. Especially with 'evil' classes, the risks of being sold out are just... Far, far too great - again... A player complaint, but one that I make often. People think it's absolutely the Greatest Thing to sell others out, even if it's not really for profit or plot advancement. It baffles me. -Especially- with Mages, they'll just see one another to the Pyre like it's the best thing to occur since sliced bread. Call me pessimistic, but the last time I felt truly connected to Mages was back in the day when the Manus was still around, and there were people that just straight-up lived in the Tower. It was nice, really nice... Someone to talk to without fear of retribution or rebuke, someone to learn from in times of need, and someone that you could just... Depend on. It's been a while, since then, but I've not really trusted anyone since that Tower went down.
TL;DR : Mages are great, but too squishy and time-consuming for what you get out of them. 'Evil' characters are absolutely plagued with untrustworthy people, and it's just way, way, way easier to play a shade of grey in the Knights or Reeves rather then someone outwardly and obviously evil. Considering that, without these characters, the MUD wouldn't exist at all, it's difficult to me to justify the XP/RP intake of evil characters to anyone but the oldest and most dedicated of players.
Sorry for the rant. <3
As a Mage, I was very surprised at the... Paranoia? In the pbase. It's understandable - I've been sold out or fingered countless times for stuff that I may or may not have done, on countless characters. Often, it's ended in boring prison RP, or equally boring torture RP, but every now and again I manage to get someone that actually enjoys the banter back and forth between a condemned criminal and someone in a position of power within the justice system. Back to the point, however, on the Mage side (and on the Brotherhood side, as well), it truly amazes me how -many- people think that it's revolutionary or great RP to be a turncoat. Honestly, at this point, it's more surprising and refreshing to me to find a character that will stick by his/her friends and not sell them out for profit or freedom.
I'll safely say that after playing many classes and builds - Mage, non-Mage, Brotherhood, Reeves, combat-char, non-combat, builder, etc? I prefer non-mages. Don't get me wrong - mages have amazing utility spells. They're useful. On Curos, I used spells more or less all the time... They came in a ton of use for generating RP and making it appear as though I was more powerful then I actually was. That being said? My death XP earned me nearly 400k. I don't know the exact measurement, but I sunk a -ton- of RP and XP into Curos... For very, very little payoff. It was neat to be able to speak Eld fluently, sure. It was convenient to be able to read minds, yes. And I had a ton of fun becoming a shadow and exploring blocked-off regions of the map. But would I trade it for nearly one million XP of a combat character? Hell to the Arien no. With that amount of XP, I could have made one of the most powerful combat characters on the MUD and still had enough XP to play around with getting stats to befit such a character, and dabble in nearly every skill out there. With Curos, I had a utility character... That was overshadowed, more often then not, by "heroic" combat characters, swooping in to save the day with the zillions of skills they had at their disposal.
IMHO - and take it with a very, very large grain of salt - Mages are... Interesting. Fun to play. Certainly worth a shot. But because of the squish that they've got, because of the limited use of magic... I couldn't recommend one to someone looking to play the game for long. Using magic equals a brutal and efficient death. Period. Full stop. There's no Inquisitors here that would consider (In my experience) teaming up with mages - or those with (understandably) suspect amounts of knowledge on the subject of magics and the arcane. I also simply can't recall encountering a Knight willing to 'lose' RP with a Mage in combat - the idea that Rothgar has indeed 'lost' in RP to Mages makes a good many people balk at the idea of allowing such a thing. And, again - a grain of salt. It's been many moons since I've had anything to do with the Order (mostly because of OOC squeamishness, my own fault and no one elses), or the Knights on a regular basis. Even the Reeves, really, I've only played once before dropping, simply because there wasn't much back-and-forth between the Reeves/Brotherhood at all.
In conclusion, playing a Mage - or just about any 'evil' class - just isn't worth it, in my opinion. You can either choose the candle that burns twice as bright (often, it doesnt), or the one that burns steady and boring, but oft times allows opportunities to burn just as bright. Especially with 'evil' classes, the risks of being sold out are just... Far, far too great - again... A player complaint, but one that I make often. People think it's absolutely the Greatest Thing to sell others out, even if it's not really for profit or plot advancement. It baffles me. -Especially- with Mages, they'll just see one another to the Pyre like it's the best thing to occur since sliced bread. Call me pessimistic, but the last time I felt truly connected to Mages was back in the day when the Manus was still around, and there were people that just straight-up lived in the Tower. It was nice, really nice... Someone to talk to without fear of retribution or rebuke, someone to learn from in times of need, and someone that you could just... Depend on. It's been a while, since then, but I've not really trusted anyone since that Tower went down.
TL;DR : Mages are great, but too squishy and time-consuming for what you get out of them. 'Evil' characters are absolutely plagued with untrustworthy people, and it's just way, way, way easier to play a shade of grey in the Knights or Reeves rather then someone outwardly and obviously evil. Considering that, without these characters, the MUD wouldn't exist at all, it's difficult to me to justify the XP/RP intake of evil characters to anyone but the oldest and most dedicated of players.
Sorry for the rant. <3
Rothgar Astartes, Fyurii Rynnya, Nils 'Smith' Mattias, Edward Darson, Curos Arents.
Loving the rant 
And maybe the solution would be to allow mages to gain really extraordinary powers by plots? I mean if they would manage to, for example, sacrifice 3 people in some ritual then those mages would become twice as strong as heroic combat characters? Or some other amazing powers that will require severe teamwork to unlock and progress. Because beside learning other spells and moons (mechanics wise) there is little reward for dropping the paranoia, and the other moons are for most just more utility.
Same way it could be with brotherhood, large rewards beside the increase in free weekly RPA's.
And maybe the solution would be to allow mages to gain really extraordinary powers by plots? I mean if they would manage to, for example, sacrifice 3 people in some ritual then those mages would become twice as strong as heroic combat characters? Or some other amazing powers that will require severe teamwork to unlock and progress. Because beside learning other spells and moons (mechanics wise) there is little reward for dropping the paranoia, and the other moons are for most just more utility.
Same way it could be with brotherhood, large rewards beside the increase in free weekly RPA's.
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"
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Voxumo
- Posts: 655
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- Location: Delta Junction, Alaska
- Discord Handle: Voxumo#7925
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I've got to agree with Rothgar on this. Having played 23 characters, 14 of which have been mages, in my almost 3 years of playing this game I've played many roles. Not just mages, but Brotherhood members, reeves, knight, Orderites, Nobles, Bards... I don't think there isn't a guild I haven't been in, minus the... Oh shit, what's the name of that order-like guild, the all secretive one.Rothgar wrote:Having played as both a Mage and a Knight, I'm fortunate enough to have been able to RP both sides of the MUD. I will say that, as Rothgar, it was always interesting to me to see how many Mages went down without a fight - I'm not certain if they'd already consigned themselves to their fates, or if they thought that they could somehow get out of it... But it's very interesting to see how many people simply assented to an arrest that they knew would, more then likely, end them. Or, at the very least, put an end to any interesting RP they might encounter.
As a Mage, I was very surprised at the... Paranoia? In the pbase. It's understandable - I've been sold out or fingered countless times for stuff that I may or may not have done, on countless characters. Often, it's ended in boring prison RP, or equally boring torture RP, but every now and again I manage to get someone that actually enjoys the banter back and forth between a condemned criminal and someone in a position of power within the justice system. Back to the point, however, on the Mage side (and on the Brotherhood side, as well), it truly amazes me how -many- people think that it's revolutionary or great RP to be a turncoat. Honestly, at this point, it's more surprising and refreshing to me to find a character that will stick by his/her friends and not sell them out for profit or freedom.
I'll safely say that after playing many classes and builds - Mage, non-Mage, Brotherhood, Reeves, combat-char, non-combat, builder, etc? I prefer non-mages. Don't get me wrong - mages have amazing utility spells. They're useful. On Curos, I used spells more or less all the time... They came in a ton of use for generating RP and making it appear as though I was more powerful then I actually was. That being said? My death XP earned me nearly 400k. I don't know the exact measurement, but I sunk a -ton- of RP and XP into Curos... For very, very little payoff. It was neat to be able to speak Eld fluently, sure. It was convenient to be able to read minds, yes. And I had a ton of fun becoming a shadow and exploring blocked-off regions of the map. But would I trade it for nearly one million XP of a combat character? Hell to the Arien no. With that amount of XP, I could have made one of the most powerful combat characters on the MUD and still had enough XP to play around with getting stats to befit such a character, and dabble in nearly every skill out there. With Curos, I had a utility character... That was overshadowed, more often then not, by "heroic" combat characters, swooping in to save the day with the zillions of skills they had at their disposal.
IMHO - and take it with a very, very large grain of salt - Mages are... Interesting. Fun to play. Certainly worth a shot. But because of the squish that they've got, because of the limited use of magic... I couldn't recommend one to someone looking to play the game for long. Using magic equals a brutal and efficient death. Period. Full stop. There's no Inquisitors here that would consider (In my experience) teaming up with mages - or those with (understandably) suspect amounts of knowledge on the subject of magics and the arcane. I also simply can't recall encountering a Knight willing to 'lose' RP with a Mage in combat - the idea that Rothgar has indeed 'lost' in RP to Mages makes a good many people balk at the idea of allowing such a thing. And, again - a grain of salt. It's been many moons since I've had anything to do with the Order (mostly because of OOC squeamishness, my own fault and no one elses), or the Knights on a regular basis. Even the Reeves, really, I've only played once before dropping, simply because there wasn't much back-and-forth between the Reeves/Brotherhood at all.
In conclusion, playing a Mage - or just about any 'evil' class - just isn't worth it, in my opinion. You can either choose the candle that burns twice as bright (often, it doesnt), or the one that burns steady and boring, but oft times allows opportunities to burn just as bright. Especially with 'evil' classes, the risks of being sold out are just... Far, far too great - again... A player complaint, but one that I make often. People think it's absolutely the Greatest Thing to sell others out, even if it's not really for profit or plot advancement. It baffles me. -Especially- with Mages, they'll just see one another to the Pyre like it's the best thing to occur since sliced bread. Call me pessimistic, but the last time I felt truly connected to Mages was back in the day when the Manus was still around, and there were people that just straight-up lived in the Tower. It was nice, really nice... Someone to talk to without fear of retribution or rebuke, someone to learn from in times of need, and someone that you could just... Depend on. It's been a while, since then, but I've not really trusted anyone since that Tower went down.
TL;DR : Mages are great, but too squishy and time-consuming for what you get out of them. 'Evil' characters are absolutely plagued with untrustworthy people, and it's just way, way, way easier to play a shade of grey in the Knights or Reeves rather then someone outwardly and obviously evil. Considering that, without these characters, the MUD wouldn't exist at all, it's difficult to me to justify the XP/RP intake of evil characters to anyone but the oldest and most dedicated of players.
Sorry for the rant. <3
But back on topic. One thing I've often ran into playing a mage, is not wanting to risk the character I've put so much work and time into, so much xp into. I'd love to create havoc and rp for others that didn't actually harm their characters, but I'm not prepared to risk my character just for others, when the risk outweighs the reward. And I've brought this up before, and it's been disregarded very quickly, but it just doesn't feel like there's any real motivation to put 'evil' characters at risk. I mean take Rhea for example, my pride and joy character. I've been playing her since febuary of 2014. Right now, she's sitting at 100% rec level, death xp of 90065. She's Grandmastered Air and Balathumel, mastered Void and Lunare. However Misune, who hasn't grandmastered any skill, and only mastered 3 skills, would have a substantial amount more death xp than rhea if his rec level was 100% and they were both to die today. That's ridiculous. Would I say the constant risk has been worth all the work put into her? No, not at all. The two times I tried to create rp for others in a rather direct fashion... No one cared. It was swept under the rug. Attacking the Daravi Camp and Stealing the chalice from the Cathedral. It didn't spur rp, it didn't create conflict for my character... it felt like a massive waste of my time, and a waste of 10 qp, which is hard to come by as is. It's like why should I bother putting my character at risk, when no one really cares? When no real rp comes out of it. I understand it's a game about rp and story-telling, but that doesn't mean it should all be one-sided.
However while on the topic of risk over reward, Rothgar brought up not even being able to trust fellow mages. I've haven't brought this up oocly, but I've brought it up many times on Rhea, in rp and on my Player blog. It feels like when the manus was removed, that any ounce of community in the mages vanished. I don't want to blame it wholly on the manus being removed, since it occurred even when the manus was around, but it certainly hit a new high when the manus was removed. It's like I brought in a blog post in rhea's perspective. All these fledgling mages are practically being thrown to the pyre because they don't have someone there to teach them, to help them survive and improve their magic. And why is this, because the senior/skilled/veteran mages are too scared to trust these new mages to take the risk of teaching them because the risk outweighs the reward. I'm not saying there aren't those veteran mages who do take the risk, just not alot. I don't know what can be done to prevent this, but I like to think that if there were actually a group out there for new/fledgling mages to learn from, that maybe the turn over wouldn't be so high, and the maging community may lessen it's paranoia.
On another topic, regarding interactions between Knights and Mages, and Reeves and Brotherhood, and being able to 'lose' to further rp. I can't exactly say I've ever purposefully lost a fight against a mage just to further rp, however I have overlooked situations to generate rp with my character's sworn enemy. Example, when I was Proconsul as Kain, Kain made many unsavory agreements with the Brotherhood, such as allowing them access to a prisoner that they would return in exchange assassinating a Mage. Yeah it ultimately got Kain executed, but it rewarding rp, one that both sides were able to appreciate. It fostered wonderful Ic Relationships at the cost of overlooking some sworn vendettas. Another very recent example is with the darkest day plot. When taking on the Void Gateway in the farin Quarter, misune had to make a serious choice when confronted with accepting help from a bunch of 'Astral' mages. Accept their help and prevent a fight, acknowledging they knew more about the location than he did, or keep to theme and fight them, putting his party at risk and disadvantaging them. I'm not against Polar opposites working together in rp, if it actually fosters meaningful rp.
However in summary, even though I feel the risk of magery heavily outweighs the reward that comes from it, I still love magery, hence why I keep on playing mage characters. It's a very niche role in the game that comes with the acceptance that ultimately, you shouldn't expect much back from this character you are investing time and xp into.
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Hmm, I might be understanding this wrong, but why is that?Voxumo wrote:However Misune, who hasn't grandmastered any skill, and only mastered 3 skills, would have a substantial amount more death xp than rhea if his rec level was 100% and they were both to die today.
And yeah, I don't see why the Manus, a new one, shouldn't exist. In fact, when I joined the game I expected there to be a hidden mage society off in the wilderness as a safe haven for those mages who find it, and was surprised when there wasn't. I figured mages dying came from mages infiltrating Lithmore and trying to change things, and I didn't know that there was no organization whatsoever (anymore).
So personally, I feel that it's stranger for there not to be a Manus than for there to be, especially considering the sheer number of mages.
Well, I was around when manus were dismantled (times of my first mages) and joining the manus looked around that:Lily wrote:Hmm, I might be understanding this wrong, but why is that?Voxumo wrote:However Misune, who hasn't grandmastered any skill, and only mastered 3 skills, would have a substantial amount more death xp than rhea if his rec level was 100% and they were both to die today.
And yeah, I don't see why the Manus, a new one, shouldn't exist. In fact, when I joined the game I expected there to be a hidden mage society off in the wilderness as a safe haven for those mages who find it, and was surprised when there wasn't. I figured mages dying came from mages infiltrating Lithmore and trying to change things, and I didn't know that there was no organization whatsoever (anymore).
So personally, I feel that it's stranger for there not to be a Manus than for there to be, especially considering the sheer number of mages.
- Send first letter
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It simply was not functioning and joining was, well, the above. Now that we have a lot more people active maybe it is time to consider bringing it up.
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BlackSoul566
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:17 am
I really would like to see the chance to become a better battle-mage. I hear about all of these combat spells that staff is removing... What if a Destruction skill was implemented, which reintroduced those spells depending on your level. I feel like if you, as a mage, invest all of your time to be combat ready just like any other character, you should be just as formidable as a Knight or Reeve, etc etc. I think it's highly unfair that a mage won't be formidable in magical attacks as a combat character simply because that other player has 'invested' their time in combat training. But if mages want to invest themselves in combat specific training... Who is to complain when they best someone else who did just the same?
Also, I would love to see a new 'guild' or group come about specific for mages. Obviously it would have to be hidden and secretive.. But maybe over time, not so much? I mena, if the game is all about the storytelling system, I feel like the characters could influence the world to sort of null the fear people have of mages to a point. Perhaps the people begin to turn against the church for fear of it's rule, etc etc.
Also, I would love to see a new 'guild' or group come about specific for mages. Obviously it would have to be hidden and secretive.. But maybe over time, not so much? I mena, if the game is all about the storytelling system, I feel like the characters could influence the world to sort of null the fear people have of mages to a point. Perhaps the people begin to turn against the church for fear of it's rule, etc etc.
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