[Poll] Theme Enforcement - the gentle approach

[Zeita]

I can't really comment on any recent specifics, as I've not been around or involved with these beyond a tangential level.

I've beaten on this drum before, but one of the important roles that the Court guild and the GLs of said guild in particular, played, was as watchdogs for the theme and a point of escalation for such things. The seneschal position, unfortunately, lacks both the inherent gravitas and oomph to take on that role, especially when it comes to dealing with errant nobles. The church GLs are often too busy/under the pump with their key role to worry about such matters as well. Regardless, an important theme oversight position has been lost with no direct replacement.

There are a lot of other reasons to return the court to full or semi function that this isn't really the topic for.

[Temi]

From a player in game (Desna):

I don't have an account on the forums that will allow me to vote in the poll, but as an active player I still wish to provide my thoughts.

On the Website, front page, first line, the theme is set into play: "In an alternate universe called Urth, an angry king set off on a religious quest to eradicate magery throughout the world due to the death of his family at the hands of the Council of Seven."

However, as the theme is played, this is not what happens in the game. I'm one of the people who have been complaining about the theme for a long time due to the amount of Mage Players being allowed/able to use the Order as a personal assassination team.

At this point in time, the polls shows the following:

exactly how I like it = 4 votes
okay, but could use some improvement = 4 votes
failing us in significant ways that concern me = 5 votes

This is looking eerily familiar to the Whoinvis Poll that was recently done, which the information provided was pointless as whoinvis was already changed.

I'm not writing this to be negative or cast a bad light on anyone, I'm simply giving my opinion that I've put together based on previous polls and previous comments from other players.

As it stands, there has been a call out on a particular group of people who control the game by underhanded means. No one would call this out if they didn't feel cheated enough to say it, and claiming there is no proof in logs is simply sweeping the problem under the rug. You aren't going to get any logs because actions are taken the moment this kind of stuff leaks out to stop any further information from reaching staff.

That being said, I don't believe having staff micro manage the pbase, in what is and is not theme, is going to help. Instead, I believe that is going to harm the pbase, as I don't believe anyone wants to log into a game and get tell after tell from staff about how this and that isn't right. Creating new coding, I don't believe is going to be of much help either as the code can easily be ignored and in the end, doing nothing doesn't seem like an answer either.

What about this then? There are two sides of the pbase: Those who believe in the theme and those who twist the theme into something it is not. Why not lighten PK Policy to allow Themedom Fighters an easier time to combat the Anti-Thematic? Anything outside of theme would be considered Magery or Heretical due to the superstitious world that The Inquisition is suppose to be. Or, perhaps run a storyline about the theme to group those Themedom Fighters together and give them a chance to push against the status quo. As it stands, those in support of an accurate theme are being alienated and the group divided in order to allow the ruling party to keep their positions in the game. Sort of like a re-enactment of the Consolidation to remind the game world of the proper theme.

Now I'm going to hear how PKing a majority of the Pbase isn't going to help, but it will. Those characters that are out of theme are unable to return to theme due to the storylines already in play. However, a fresh character will allow the player to return a character to the game that is in theme. Sometimes, it's just better to retire and reroll. Fresh stories, fresh theme, it's good for the revitalization of the game world.

Just my two cents.

[Puciek]

PK rules are already quite loose, and we had people go on genocide sprees for believing that order is not doing its job. Of course, that itself will be breaking the theme quite a bit (You think that you know better than the order what is or isn't a heresy?!) and will almost certainly lead to a population war against them, but that's how it goes in vigilantes world. It was done before, and if you wish to put life of your PC on the line - you can, no need for an ST.

Alternatively, join Order/Reeves/Nobles and use the official route to uphold the theme. They are both low on numbers for longest of times, so this route certainly wasn't tried. And comes without big risk for your life.

[wimple]

This is a really difficult discussion to have, as stated, because it isn't clear what theme is in these discussions or what it means to be unthematic. From Desna's post, it seems being a heretic might be viewed as unthematic. But most heretical groups HAVE theme and lore around them for characters that want to play those religions. So those characters are IN THEME but just playing AGAINST majority theme. Is this unthematic or in-theme?

So are heretics unthematic if you are following that religion's theme? Or are they in theme and the problem isn't the heretic but the lack of the Order going after the heretic so that end of theme is balanced and upheld? Further, what the heck is the Order going to do if we aren't supposed to play antagonistic characters because of theme?

I don't really know that the Court is the end-stop for theme enforcement either - as I recall, we had these same complaints about issues with theme when we had a functioning court.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

So are heretics unthematic if you are following that religion's theme? Or are they in theme and the problem isn't the heretic but the lack of the Order going after the heretic so that end of theme is balanced and upheld? Further, what the heck is the Order going to do if we aren't supposed to play antagonistic characters because of theme?

Characters who are openly heretical are against theme; characters who manage to hide their heresy from the public eye are in-theme. Ultimately, I feel that it is the playerbase's responsibility to enforce theme, not the staff's, which is I where I agree with Mami's opinion that an active, engaged nobility / court can do a lot to help combat breaches of theme by coming harder than public opinion might decide to do. Lithmore is not a kingdom that should allow open sin and when Orderite characters allow this to happen then theme suffers. There are, certainly, particular grey areas (homosexuality, slavery) that serve as continued points of RP that are a lot of fun to engage around, but the worst thing a citizen of the realm should feel could happen to them is to be suspected of being labeled a heretic, sinner, or associated with magic even by accidental collusion.

While I understand the desire to play characters who rub against Theme — heck, I played a noble's bastard Knight latent mage — I think it's crucially important to look at the actions of both other characters and our own characters in-line with how reactions can be seen by the public eye of NPCs. When Farra was becoming pregnant with her child and was unable to hide the action through a quick marriage to her betrothal, she literally fled the Duchy for friendlier waters and her own household, despite being absolved of the sin already. She feared the public's reaction, and when I came back I tried to ensure that such sin wasn't forgotten — five IC years isn't so long, after all.

Ultimately, I do think that staff should continue to do certain things to enforce theme. When mages infiltrate the Order is needs to be handled correctly; the PCs need to fool not just the PC players but also the NPCs who would be watching. Are these PCs taking trips to the forest in the middle of the night? Making strange purchases from strange people? Absent from their duties when they are meditating or doing magey things? I do think it's terribly easy for mages to remain perpetually hidden from the public eye because Players themselves are very easy to fool. While this is a good thing, it shouldn't be the enabling OOC limitation that allows characters who betray the basic theme of the game: Order vs Chaos— to flourish.

[kipperialovskii]

Assigning broad names to people, such as 'Themedom Fighters' just encourages an 'Us v. Them' mentality that serves people very little, and just encourages people to be rude to one another on an OOC level as opposed to handling the issue at hand. I would prefer it if we addressed the issue directly, rather than immediately presuming there are simply two sides clashing against one another.

There are simply instances of theme that are pretty weakened due to this transitional period as opposed to direct bending of theme for OOC reasons, I'd like to think. For example. A nobleman might be entirely thematic in his political RP-- But due to the lack of active priests and reeves, there's no-one available to give a good IC crash-course or prompt to look up help-files during play, of either parts of theme. This person isn't bending theme-- it's just a natural course of there being no initial guidance, nor chance to confess on-grid to learn, up until they have to be shown by the GI, the most horrifying rank in-game, how things work.

I believe most of this can be solved by player enforcement, however, this conversation wouldn't be happening if there was a cog stuck somewhere.

All I can really suggest, are minor prompts, like forcing up the demographics sheet of a race before you select them, or update the warning sign on languages to include that reading and writing are both recommended when the language is taken, as that is what is considered normal for the theme as a whole, rather than the ethnicity, unless you were an escaped slave.

Just by streamlining the little things, it helps clear the OOC confusion on the basics, so that the more complex subjects can be tackled.

I'm guilty of tripping up with theme, and have been corrected in some instances. I wish I was more awake to contribute to this topic, but I'm zoning out.

[kipperialovskii]

As for the talk of if it's thematic to be a heretic-- I don't really see why this was brought up as an issue. IC heresy is fine, even when blatant. It just isn't the norm, and don't be upset when the hammer of the church comes down on you.

It's another, when it's heresy due to OOC circumstance, when trying to translate typical low fantasy into TI. I've encountered a few people that have been utterly flustered, OOC'ly, to know that publically mentioning that you're not really 'religious' in on itself is the sin of Acedia.

[Starstarfish]

sometimes I get the feeling that people feel like whenever someone disagrees with them, it's anti-thematic,

I feel that it goes with the recent increase in this thought-crime idea of "subconscious meta." IE - this seems to be sort of various shades of the same thing this increasingly murky pool of accusation where all IC conflict is met with accusations of- meta, theme, policy, etc. We are now at the point someone is openly stating their solution to what started as IC disagreements to request staff assistance to kill any player character they deem "unthemely" and openly state they feel the majority of the current playerbase likely needs their character killed. This is frankly deeply concerning.

The church GLs are often too busy/under the pump with their key role to worry about such matters as well.

Lithmore is not a kingdom that should allow open sin and when Orderite characters allow this to happen then theme suffers.

I'll speak from this experience - being in an IC position of responsibility in the Order and working to try and enforce theme via IC action often feels like a no-win scenario. Because the player base feels so split on this topic themselves - how much should theme be enforced or not be enforced. By whom? In what ways? If you press too hard, a certain group is unhappy. If you don't press hard enough, another group is. And there is an aspect where working to enforce theme seems to cause OOC resentment if not outright hostility.

IE - if you attempt to ICly enforce theme the accusation is then made ICly or OOCly that it is being done simply to "ruin people's characters." It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario.

I'm one of the people who have been complaining about the theme for a long time due to the amount of Mage Players being allowed/able to use the Order as a personal assassination team.

If you are someone who knows enough about Mage RP to be able to comment on it, you are engaged IC in something that is dangerous and possibly deadly. The choice to involve oneself in Mage RP comes with risks - up to and including the risk that you friends sell you out. "Personal assassinations" are valid choices - they are indeed listed right within the Order FAQ sticky. So whether or not that's the true motivation to anything, staff have said that's a valid option. It's an IC issue with IC consequences, it is not policy/theme breaking.

Those who believe in the theme and those who twist the theme into something it is not.

There were 128 unique characters online of 839 total in the database.

At the moment, 16 people voted in this thread. According to these statistics 128 unique characters played this week. Now granted, I don't know what the account to alt count ratio here is, but I'm still guessing there's way more than 16 players who play this game, given there's 18 on right now and I don't believe any are alts. So ... this poll or any poll is not a carbon copy expression of the playerbase at large. So this dire vision that there's some Iron Man vs. Captain American civil war brewing is way overselling it, IMHO.

[lkbalboa]

I honestly got a little bit lost with the accusations of cheating with no proof because you feel like it, or the suggestion to run an ST to kill off characters you don't like. I don't know if that's the most constructive way to keep theme on track, in my opinion. If something is egregiously off theme, I think staff should step in and explain and educate, but I wouldn't wish staff the hell of being admin on a game where they have to jump into every other conflict to resolve issues, either.

I've heard about... 4 people total talk very strongly about how theme is not the way they like it, on forums and in OOC chats, so I'm not certain if this is an actual problem or the product of an echo chamber situation. If there are specific instances or continuing, on-going thematic problems, listing them would be helpful for me as a reader. Also, I'm not sure on the policy about this, but vaguely naming people and situations doesn't give me enough information to actually respond and engage in a conversation. If it's not against policy, it might be more helpful to clearly indicate, thus even allowing players you feel are doing wrong to give a bit of background information.

[AlwaysShunny]

Read the OOC Chat log, then this thread, and found myself questioning a few points that were raised, the most prominent to me being OOC hurt feelings over how the Order handled arrests. Making a spectacle out of a public figure's arrest isn't some novel thing. It happened in the real life equivalent time period, and even if it didn't, how and why the Order chooses to detain its POIs are IC decisions dictated by RP. No one should be OOCly grilling why an arrest is done publicly.

Killing off half the playerbase seems like an extreme reaction to something that is frankly, a nonissue. There is no conspiracy, no big cover-up involving covert v. lawful RP, which I think is what's being pussyfooted around. If you get caught ICly, you should expect to get punished for it. There is far too much attachment OOCly to IC events. Remember that it's just a game, and if you let the fun of it be ruined by perceived injustices done to your character, or character's sphere, you'll just dig yourself deeper into a hole until you feel like it's you against the Urth. Trust me, I've been there. It is not fun.

I voted that theme enforcement was failing us significantly, although upon reading Starfish and Kipper's posts, I think my vote would lie more in the middle. There is plenty of room for improvement. We have had an influx of new players recently, some of whom have had a hard time following theme. It's been a while for me since chargen, but would it be possible to maybe streamline the theme helpfiles for newbies in the first or second rooms; one extensive, yet comprehensive, summary of Lithmore and how you are supposed to act in it? Or is that already something that's been implemented?