In what circumstances should you deny a PC (cyan or otherwise) entry into a guild?

[Dreams]

My point was that if you feel a GL is failing at their job you can take that IC instead of using Forum posts pressuring players OOCly to play the way you want them to.

+1

Which is how it should be done.

[OneWing]

(Portion removed for violation of forum policy - personal attacks and revealing IC information)

The helpfiles also keep being disregarded. They are and have been made for a reason.



This is a discussion, not forcing someone to act through forum posts.

[Dreams]

The helpfiles also keep being disregarded. They are and have been made for a reason.

Please give an example of helpfiles that are being disregarded? In specifics - what specific lines of helpfiles are all of the GLs and players posting on this thread not paying attention to?

This is a discussion, not forcing someone to act through forum posts.

It sure seems to be a pointed attack - which is why I mentioned early in the thread that if this is a conversation about one specific interaction, the forum is not the best medium for it.

[galaxgal]

You are still looking to self-justify your actions entirely to your own line of reasoning, without seeming to consider all the points listed.

In my ~1 year of being 1GL/2GL of a Guild I denied a player entry literally once, and it came with the condition of reconsideration and a very specific 'quest'/task for the player to undertake so that they could have something to do. This isn't about 'my' actions, sorry.

(And that Guild is the Troubadours, who you keep praising for their induction process that has been the same for over 4 IRL years, before I even joined the MUD, so...?)

[Dreams]

I'm going to lay this here, since it seems it is believed by some that the GLs and others on this thread are not following policy in the helpfiles with their responses. This is from help policy guildleaders.

Guildleaders are expected to:

- ensure their guild is actively representing itself on the IC stage
Examples:

A. Order holds mass, public pyrings, knight patrols, etc

B. Troubadours hold plays, perform in inns, place court bards

C. Physicians treat patients and look after city health

D. Merchants outfit other characters and engage in charity

E. Brotherhood steal, commit crimes, and antagonize Reeves

F. Reeves fight crime and handle civil administration

G. Manus terrorizes the populace

H. Court makes events and engages in politics

- characterize their guild in RP

- handle recruitment activities such as: A. Advertising B. Chasing
candidates C. Testing/questing seekers D. Encourage or coordinate guild
member sponsorships

- manage guild member ranks, including promotions and demotions

- arrange for members to have access to necessary skills

- teach guild protocol

- delegate and assign guild tasks

- answer correspondence in a timely manner

- encourage members to share guild RP

- be active (a minimum of 1 hour of RP per week for each of 4 weeks in 6)

- support their guild members in carrying out guild appropriate RP.

- acknowledge seekers when contacted and tell them what they need to do in
order to be guilded

- enact staff requests

- Be the GL of only one guild, and that to be their primary IC loyalty.

Guildleaders have the power and authority to:

- Choose if they wish to guild another character, regardless of sponsors.

- Promote/demote guild members.

- Oust guild members from their guild.

- RP their legitimate leadership of the guild.

- Open up roles in their guild for application (Request board note to
staff)

Guildleaders may be removed from their role if:

- They consistently fail to meet GL expectations as outlined above.

- They become OUSTED (see Help Support)

- They violate game rules or policy

- They are frequently inactive or too inactive to adequately and responsibly
do their job.

- They have significant conflict with TI staff's with regards to their
behavior and activities (IE: if they are viewed as materially harming the
game).

- They are ICly exposed to the public as a mage (excluding Manus GLs) or for
extreme heresy

- IC Events necessitate their removal.

If you are having an IC problem with a GL, please use the relevant support
and subvert functions to approve or disapprove of their IC activities (see
help support and help gambit). If you are having an OOC problem with a GL,
please contact the staff via the Request Board.

Guildleaders receive extra silver paid to their accounts based on their
popularity.

(Subject area: policy Last modified: Tue Oct 8 03:57:08 2019)

[Dreams]

In my ~1 year of being 1GL/2GL of a Guild I denied a player entry literally once, and it came with the condition of reconsideration and a very specific 'quest'/task for the player to undertake so that they could have something to do. This isn't about 'my' actions, sorry.

(And that Guild is the Troubadours, who you keep praising for their induction process that has been the same for over 4 IRL years, before I even joined the MUD, so...?)

I've denied 2 total - one in the first GL position I took, and one in the second GL position I took. Both for IC reasons that the people could choose to deal with however they wanted to ICly (and did, the subversion, for a while, was real.)

The first time, the denial was removed, and the person was added to the guild eventually, and ended up being removed later because of IC actions.

The second time, there was some serious IC disconnect between the behavior of the character and the guild, and it was not thematic to allow the person in. (Long-standing behavior with an IC reputation of behavior.)

This is in over a full OOC year's worth of 'being a GL' time - two whole people.

I don't think any of us just constantly kick people to the curb - especially not if their cyan. My point was simply that being a cyan isn't a free ticket in.

[nemovonfish]

Nobody in this thread has asked you to give cyans a free ticket in, that's hyperbole. The situation that prompted this wasn't even involving a GL, so I'm not sure why that seems to be the focus of everyone's posts.

A brand new cyan - not an alt of an experienced player - was denied mechanical progression for their character due to unclear and unthemely IC reasons that they did not share. "Your reason isn't good enough, find a better one" in that context could have easily been taken as "Your character concept isn't good enough, find a better one." and the cyan in question could have entirely gone "welp, this place doesn't want me around, byee." which flies in the face of the culture and policy I've seen and we all seem to want to encourage.

Improvisational theatre - which is exactly what RP is - relies on "Yes, and". This was a flat "No."

[Alpharius]

Hey people, since there seems to be a lot of IC info seeping into this thread, I'm gonna have to ask for that to be toned down. I understand this topic was brought up because of a specific IC event, but from my understanding, the topic isn't to discuss the actions the GLs took during that scenario... or even the scenario itself.

Please do keep on topic and try to bring forth your points without mentioning IC events, or pointing fingers at each other.

[galaxgal]

@Alpharius, Understood, and sorry about that.

I'm just gonna end my contributions here on this: in general, If this discussion isn't even about GL's then it's a wider base of players who have even less responsibility and expectations to abide by another's standard or desires of RP, and that there are even more avenues around that if that's the case.

[Dreams]

Nobody in this thread has asked you to give cyans a free ticket in, that's hyperbole. The situation that prompted this wasn't even involving a GL, so I'm not sure why that seems to be the focus of everyone's posts.

A brand new cyan - not an alt of an experienced player - was denied mechanical progression for their character due to unclear and unthemely IC reasons that they did not share. "Your reason isn't good enough, find a better one" in that context could have easily been taken as "Your character concept isn't good enough, find a better one." and the cyan in question could have entirely gone "welp, this place doesn't want me around, byee." which flies in the face of the culture and policy I've seen and we all seem to want to encourage.

Improvisational theatre - which is exactly what RP is - relies on "Yes, and". This was a flat "No."

"I don't believe your reason is good enough," is not unthemely. It may not be nice or polite in your opinion, but it is not against theme in the slightest. It is perfectly thematic.

Denial of entry into a guild is not denial of progression. Maybe they need to progress in a different manner.

Your example of it being interpreted as, "Your character concept isn't good enough, find a better one," is an example of IC/OOC bleed/crossover. It is taking something said IC, and interpreting it in an OOC manner, rather than leaving it IC where it belongs. No one is required to like and/or respect every character they come across. The players? That's a different story. The charcters? No.

Whether or not they are a new cyan or an alt of an established character doesn't matter - cyans are cyans.

This continues to revolve around one single incident, and so for the THIRD TIME, I say the following:
If this conversation is based around a single event, and not about cyans and guild entry generically, this is not the correct medium for discussion.

I will also point this out - again, from 'help policy guildleaders':

If you are having an IC problem with a GL, please use the relevant support
and subvert functions to approve or disapprove of their IC activities (see
help support and help gambit). If you are having an OOC problem with a GL,
please contact the staff via the Request Board.

The same would go for any other member of the playerbase - if you have an IC problem with the way they handled things, you handle it ICly. If you have an OOC problem with them, you should contact staff via the request board and file a report.

If you believe a player broke the rules as far as dealing with cyans, they should be reported and then staff can take a look into it and decide whether or not they agree with your viewpoint. There should not be an entire thread about one single incident that passive-aggressively lambasts the players involved OOCly about actions they took ICly - so, yes, the majority of people responding tried to make it more generic and steer it toward a generic topic that was more appropriate for the forums and can be discussed here. Therefore, the topic of GLs and guild entry, because ultimately, GLs are the ones that make the final decision.

I also asked this quite some time ago, and I note that it hasn't been answered:

Please give an example of helpfiles that are being disregarded? In specifics - what specific lines of helpfiles are all of the GLs and players posting on this thread not paying attention to?

If you believe policies are being ignored in the conversation of this thread, I am 100% willing to listen and hear what these policies are so I can evaluate them and correct my own thinking.

HOWEVER, that said, if you believe someone else broke policy, THIS IS NOT THE PLACE FOR THE COMPLAINT. Take it to the request boards.

(End edited for clarity.)