In what circumstances should you deny a PC (cyan or otherwise) entry into a guild?

[galaxgal]

If there's a belief that policies are being broken then its not even the place or responsibility of players to hear those discussions. We don't have a say in what they are, or how they're enforced.

[Dreams]

If there's a belief that policies are being broken then its not even the place or responsibility of players to hear those discussions. We don't have a say in what they are, or how they're enforced.

Yes, thank you. I edited my last few statements for clarity.

I meant policies people believed that those responding to the thread were ignoring in their responses, not policies that people thought were being broken in game.

[Staub]

I don't really like how uncouth people have been in parts of this discussion. Please remember to be respectful.

I think it's okay if GLs say no to a seeker, especially, but not limited to, if it's a guild known for being hard to get into.

What I'd love to see for all guilds is telling the seeker they can try again (having it said again helps even when you know) and tell them what was lacking and how they can approve it. Some guidance goes a long way, and helps driving RP.

[phoenixdoll]

So I've had some time to think and to gather my thoughts, and I still do feel that my question is valid and the reasons for my question, while I seem to have ruffled some feathers in the process, didn't stem from a desire to upset people but genuinely out of concern for how our game is treating new people.

I'd like to ask all of you to perhaps forgive me if I have upset you, that was not my intention. I kinda feel from a lot of the replies in this thread that I've contributed to a lot of negative vibes and anger. Some of which was perhaps rightfully directed at me, idk.

I fear a lot of you don't know me from a bar of soap, but I'm very much all about the good vibes and being kind to each other, which is why I wrote such a long effort post in the first place.

Anyway, in more general sense, I suppose I was trying to genuinely ask what reasons were valid and in the end I agree with the answer that everyone else has come up with as "whatever the GL determines!"

I suppose I was more trying to query if where possible when approving / denying seekers, especially new players, should we be aiming to challenge and engage? The answer to that I feel is obviously yes.

By that, I actually think that being initially denied is probably more fun in the grand scheme. Just in my own experience, being initially denied to join the Troubadours was way more rp = more character developing = more fun.

I guess what ultimately prompted my long effort post was a frustration on my part, not just from one scene, is that while everyone agrees in our weekly ooc chats "support cyans!" and I think that we do a great job with visnet and honestly I do earnestly believe that we all do genuinely want to retain new players, I think something actionable we could do is actually consider how we encourage new players with joining a guild. I'm not saying they should be automatically admitted (I never said they should be automatically admitted).

I guess my perspective of playing since may (so not long) is that being in a guild is really important to be connected to the grid and to rp, and also to be able to improve mechanically with guild skills.

[Puciek]

I guess my perspective of playing since may (so not long) is that being in a guild is really important to be connected to the grid and to rp, and also to be able to improve mechanically with guild skills.

That is true, but it's also true that engrossing yourself into a guild too much can be as bad to a new player. You can see that relatively often when a cyan is so focused on the guild that they just never took the time to develop actual person, and they wind up with a character that is primarily the guild-given job, and less of a rounded person. And by then they've also been on the grid for quite a while, and it's hard to now change the character.

As for the GL authority, this has been a long stance of staff that they are mostly allowed to run the guild sa long as the guild is active, has healthy numbers and doesn't break theme. It's when those points do not work out then there is a problem in which staff may intervene (though that's very very rare, and usually done when there is theme violations) as we have many IC tools to solve "bad" GL problem.

[Staub]

That is true, but it's also true that engrossing yourself into a guild too much can be as bad to a new player. You can see that relatively often when a cyan is so focused on the guild that they just never took the time to develop actual person, and they wind up with a character that is primarily the guild-given job, and less of a rounded person. And by then they've also been on the grid for quite a while, and it's hard to now change the character.

Welp. That explains why I feel so frustrated at timed but also european time zone means your pool of people to rp with is 10 on a good day...

[Satoshi]

One thing that I don't see brought up here, at all, is that there are constant references to 'mechanical growth' for characters. This means guildskills, of course, since the guild in question is one WITH a guildskill. There's only one part of a guild without a guildskill (sorry priests!) though even they obtain special commands.

The entire purpose of having a guildskill and keeping non-guild members from raising it past 36 on their own even if they have it, is to contain the skill within the guild to keep it from being a skill just anyone can have and master. That's the point of it, for balancing reasons. There are ABSOLUTELY ways to go about getting these skills (even to GM if you really worked for it) IC without joining a guild.

This is EVERY SINGLE GUILDSKILL, by the way. So long as you find someone with the skill who is able to teach you, you can learn it, up to the max of their teaching abilities. A GM over the cap of 75 could absolutely teach a non-guildmember all the way up to GM, but that would take finding someone willing to teach it. So please do not act like characters are actively being stymied by this. You can still get these skills, this 'mechanical progression', it will just take time and patience and perhaps bribery.

The whole reason guildskills are locked anyways is to attempt to balance the game to make them desireable. There are PLENTY of skills that are not guildlocked, even CRAFTING skills like cooking and artistry. I have absolutely seen cases where a character has gone out of their way to learn a skill they aren't in a guild for, and usually what happens in they then NEVER reach out to other people with that skill, thus unbalancing the (imo already unbalanced) game economy further.

X learns how to tailor so they have the best fashion ever, because that's their IC goal... but that cuts out Y and Z from having a customer, and losing their ability. A starts with the medicine skill high, and then uses it for themselves so they never have to go to the Madison and wait on the doctors... meaning that B and C are cut out from RP with them.

Are these totally viable? Oh heck yes! But when you get people who join a guild just to get access to the guildskill, then guildhop around until they have a motely mess of all of the guildskills, (which I HAVE seen happen) it makes the people whose character concept is more strongly based around those skills less valuable to the rest of the game. Not to mention that it's illegal sometimes to do this. And I have seen in my time enough people who have 2-3 skills so that they don't have to rely on other people, it's definitely underscored the fact to me that the more people have them, especially if they end up leaving the guild, the less valuable the skills are.

EDIT: So to wrap up, this is another reason to make sure a person joining the guild is doing it for a valuable RP reason rather than just pursuing the 'mechanics' of skills. We're playing a roleplay game first and foremost, and "I want the best numbers in my fake text game" is not a roleplay reason for seeking a skill, it's an OOC reason. And if the reason is "My character has a passion for this skill" then a simple thing like a guild denial isn't going to stop that passion, is it?