Exile and its Implementation

[Voxumo]

While I've said my opinion on Exile, numerous times, given everything that has been said I'm just going to peace out on the topic and wait for the next use of the Exile command. Hopefully it will be handled better, and it won't appear as such a... Counter to the game.

[wimple]

While not necessarily heresy, any Davite who kills a mage outright should know that they have failed to save the mage's soul.

It's a bit beyond just not saving the soul, they've also created a demon. Every case I've had experience with IC in those sort of realm has been highly contentious without people being lauded as heroes for this reason and is likely where most of the heretical language comes from.

Per demon helpfile:
Demons are creatures of evil, vile taint itself personified. The label is thought to encompass a good deal of different beings, with little in common except for their identification with the power of magery.

The Erra Pater teaches that those who die without sufficient purity and good works cannot rejoin the Lord at the Fountis, and their souls become the prey and playthings of demons; mages who die without being burned at the pyre become demons themselves, a wretched and tormented existence.

Demon summoning is believed by many to be the root of mages' power; mages make corrupt bargains with the creatures in exchange for arcane knowledge and skill.

[Buzz K[ir]ill]

Thanks for that! I have always been under the impression that mages who die without the pyre become more tainted and that once they reach some unknown threshold of taint, they become demons. So my understanding has always been that it's a risk -- not a given. Granted, every time I've heard of people running mages through with swords, they've been lauded as heroes: but not for THAT particular action. I merely meant to suggest that even people who have felt forced to take extreme action have managed to find avenues for the RP (confession, haunting nightmares of having done the wrong thing, etc.) that didn't end with them being burned at the stake for heresy.

If it's canon that ALL mages who die by means other than fire definitely become demons, then yeah, that should put even more pressure on folks not to risk killing them. And anyone who does, or anyone who supports/promotes such an outcome, does so at risk to their own soul AND giving birth to an entity even more powerful than the one that was slain.

[Taunya]

We're kind of drifting off topic here, but what the heck.

Uncleansed mages might be doomed to become demons in the afterlife, but they would be trapped in the abyss unless summoned- not likely a direct threat to those on Urth. I would expect they'd be lesser demons as well, slaves to the really nasty ones.

It's generally frowned on to condemn a person to eternal damnation (aww, shucks), but it might not always be avoidable, or considered a heresy, otherwise a bunch of soldiers on the front are heretics. But it would be a heresy to knowingly execute one in another way besides besides the pyre if they were captured and known to be a mage, condemning them to eternal suffering.

Another related helpfile:

                           Helpfile for Summoning

Summoning is the art of conjuring demons (alien beings commonly
understood to represent pure evil) from their home in the abyss, a
supernatural realm, onto Urth.

Only mages can summon demons, and common knowledge suggests that this is
the primary way through which mages increase in power - unholy contracts
with evil itself.  This is yet another reason why mages are dangerous and
sinful, according to Davites, and cannot be suffered to live.

Few people know anything about the specific mechanisms of summoning, though
rumor whispers that the Order possesses some fragmented texts that support
the ties between mages and demons.

(Mages may see more information by checking help magic summoning.)

(Subject area: information            Last modified: Thu Apr  9 23:25:38 2015)

[Buzz K[ir]ill]

Probably important to have a full understanding of what is/isn't at stake, when a mage is exiled. I didn't think staff would approve an exile of a known mage because (among other things) it would be too unthematic an action for someone who abides by HELP MONARCH; I was obviously wrong.

Whether there will be IC consequences remains to be seen. I don't think many of us are comfortable with how this turned out, and the water has certainly been muddied, but that's how it is. Now we all have to figure out how to move forward, and understanding the theme better helps me at least to get my head back into the game. Thanks for the helpfile assists!

[wimple]

Per help afterlife:
"Those who die still tainted - for example, those who have failed to confess their sins or been lax in their good works - fail to join with the Lord of the Springs. Without the Fountis, it's rumored that the afterlife is a terrible, dangerous existence involving everything from madness to being feasted upon by demons.

Worst of all, however, is the fate of the uncleansed mage. If not properly purified by fire, mages become demons themselves, condemned to an eternity of darkness. This fate is sheer misery for the mage themselves but also strengthens the forces of evil: as such, Davism considers it essential to cleanse mages properly whenever at all possible."

So even if demons have to be summoned to the Urthly plane, they are actively torturing souls in an afterlife.

Sorry for going off topic - when I've personally had characters involved in RP situations where mages have died without being cleansed, it has always been a very big deal - i.e. the Ugly Salon log/scene that's in the fan fiction section, but that happened back in the day and the religions have changed a fair bit. But even with the present state of help files, while it may not be an actual heresy, I could certainly see how players may interpret it that way on their own.

[LonelyNeptune]

Also, more than "a push of the button" goes into getting the IP together to initiate an exile. It's a process with a lot of effort and RP behind it, just as there should be. Speaking about that effort in this manner trivializes the non-trivial.

It feels trivial because the cost is too low, too easy. It seems like your intention was to force the Seneschal to drive RP by spending time bolstering support, calling a Council meeting, getting in touch with influential people, etc. That sounds like it would be great!

Unfortunately, it didn't happen. The exile just sort of came out of the blue. I say that as a member of the Council and someone who RPs with the Seneschal very regularly.

Raising the cost of Exile would make it feel better and less trivial. Maybe 50 IP?

[Buzz K[ir]ill]

• The OOC incentive structure is weird: Basically, the three choices for an exiled character seem to be:
  
  • +Liquidate with full death EXP: Strictly and cynically viewing account resources as well....resources, this is the best option and a hugely positive one for the exiled.

On the one hand, it feels like an OOC bribe to abandon one's IC character concept and simply liquidate (especially paired with the QP cost to go back on grid). On the other hand, it can also be seen as a reward for doing something super risky and/or managing to make hell for a lot of people without getting captured.

If you get captured and executed, though, you get a much smaller RPXP award, so... try not to get captured?

[Buzz K[ir]ill]

Also, more than "a push of the button" goes into getting the IP together to initiate an exile. It's a process with a lot of effort and RP behind it, just as there should be. Speaking about that effort in this manner trivializes the non-trivial.

It feels trivial because the cost is too low, too easy. It seems like your intention was to force the Seneschal to drive RP by spending time bolstering support, calling a Council meeting, getting in touch with influential people, etc. That sounds like it would be great!

Unfortunately, it didn't happen. The exile just sort of came out of the blue. I say that as a member of the Council and someone who RPs with the Seneschal very regularly.

Raising the cost of Exile would make it feel better and less trivial. Maybe 50 IP?

If it helps: having run a few noble projects recently, I can say that I could fairly easily garner 25 IP between myself and just one other active Council member.

[-+[-__-]+-]

Problems as I see them and possible solutions:

1) Enacting an exile immediately pulls the target out of play.

Instate a 24-48 hour grace period before the exiled is dropped in a holding room.

This echoes deadly poison policy where PCs are given the opportunity to get in some deathbed RP or to arrange attempts to get saved. Allowing this for Exiled characters potentially gives them a chance to have "blaze of glory" RP, or just 'end of life' RP, OR a little more prep time for staging their attempt to have the IC ban reversed.


2) Paying QP to return to grid seems unbalanced when the Seneschal only has to pay 25 IP.

Increase a minimum IP requirement to Exile someone;
require an RPA submission to attempt to return to grid, ONLY after an exile announcement "cooldown";
allow other PCs to visit the Exiled for short time periods

Maybe 50+ IP to enact the exile? Include a minimum "cooldown" stage (1 or 2 RL weeks) before the exiled can attempt a return. I'm basing this RL cooldown time on how long IP efforts directly influence metrics; it should help prevent a feeling that anyone can bypass such a decree without considerable time and effort -- and certainly not while it's fresh in everyone's mind.

If the exiled character wants to try returning to grid after this period, they should submit an RPA request as is required for jail escape attempts; this may require, at minimum, 10 QP (minor assistance?) but should allow the use of silver and pooled IP in the attempt.

If a player chooses active exile (i.e. they're sitting in an off-grid room with a courier), allow them to have people visit their safe house once in a while. Just like with jailed characters, it is really hard on a player to have NO access to RP for an extended period of time. This can be limited in some reasonable way so it doesn't feel they're just in a resort hotel for a while (unless that's the story they pursue...but you know what I mean), yet allows for the character to remain active if they're working to overturn their IC ban.