Skills on creation

[Zeita]

Hi all,

Now that LBU is starting to come along more reasonably than it had at creation, I wanted to raise the subject of being able to purchase skills on creation. I think that everyone would agree, firstly, that being able to purchase skills in creation as a general concept is great and that nobody would ever want to go back to not being able to. (As it was, back in the day.)

However, we're now faced with the situation where most people are pretty much maxing their skills right out of the gate. This concerns me for a couple of reasons;

1) As an existing character, it is difficult to compete with this situation and 'catch up' as it were.

2) There is no incentive for these new characters coming in to engage in this same character development as existing characters.

I'd like to propose that the extent that a character can purchase skills up to in chargen be changed to 41. If they want a particular one or more that are higher than that, then they can be purchased with QPs. Currently, it is cheaper to buy xp with QP and spend in chargen, rather than buy skills directly with QP, which makes this facility a little useless.

41 represents mastery of a skill, which I think is more than enough for people to claim a background of being very good with this or that.

Any thoughts from anyone else?

Thanks!
-Charm.

[Kinaed]

I agree, but I'd go with Adept (25) being the max out of the gate. I think even 41 is a bit high.

Grinding can be fun, it can be not-so-fun, but regardless, it should be relatively evenly distributed throughout the pbase as to how to get a skill up. Rank 1-25 is usually reasonably easy to grind, but as one goes higher than that, it gets harder, and that's where it seems only fair to say "Hold up, people who are doing it the char-development way" deserve the benefit.

Just an opinion, not a decision!

[Estelle]

I think this would be great except for the fact that it was done this far along. Half of the pbase now is composed of chars created without this restriction, and frankly, even with LBU being better now, it is still going to take more work than the average person is willing to put in, to raise combat from 41 to 81, for example.

I really think the only way this would be viable would be to wipe the slate clean and have everyone start afresh. Drastic, but I think it would be too imbalanced otherwise. Also, I'm concerned about it encouraging grinding more than ever instead of RP to get ahead - because you absolutely must grind to increase certain skill levels instead of just RPing to get rpxp to inspire or purchase in chargen. And that takes the focus away from 'rewarding RP' to 'rewarding grinding' IMO.

I also frankly do not see why existing chars created during the era of 150k bonus xp cannot compete with chars created now. Is there something I'm missing here? IIRC we could purchase 100 skill levels right off the bat when the game started.

[Zeita]

Agreed that it is troublesome to implement now given that there are already a large number of power characters already exist in game. However, I think it needs to be arrested sooner than later. As it is, the currently uber characters will slowly fall to attrition/each other, as characters always do in time. But you're correct, Estelle, that it may create a desire to grind. Not sure how to work around that.

Across the board pwipes are always awkward, and from past experience, creates a few headaches. I'd probably only suggest that if we were to go with a completely new skill system (which, while I'd be hugely in favor of, I don't think is likely at this stage.)

150k era chars: Speaking for myself, I moderated myself to what felt like reasonable levels rather than maxing everything out. My fault, no doubt, for not expecting that everyone else would just pump to the max. 'Reasonable levels' is a very subjective term, so really nobody else to blame but myself. But I've seen it several times now, where it has been said that you need these certain skills on 75 or you just can't compete.

I guess it comes down to not wanting people to think it would just be easier to off their current character and start again just so they can join the superpowers, rather than working with what they have. That just isn't good from whichever way you look at it.

-Charm.

[Estelle]

I personally believe that the only way to not encourage grinding while limiting purchase in creation is to reinstate inspire - hence the RPing to get xp for character development. As LBU is here to stay, though, I really can see no way to not encourage grinding if a new cap is placed on chargen skill purchase. Whomever is willing to grind will have an advantage, period. Skills are definitely not the end all be all, but they confer a definite advantage, often spelling the difference between life and death.

I do think people should still be reasonable when creating, but I don't think the solution to this is a flat cap across all. If someone apps Earl marshall, for example, should he not have better than 25-level combat skills? When I created the previous Tenebrae, I admit I did max out her combat skills because I sort of thought the leader of the underground crime syndicate should be pretty damn good in order to even survive that long in the crime world and snatch that spot. I did, however, give her less than ideal str and con due to her being a small, slender woman. Some people don't care, indeed, and just get whatever they want without thinking about how it matches their char's history and position. I think that is a deeper issue than can be fixed by a simple cap.

As for the max-levels killing each other off... eh, I think a few will still remain after all that's said and done. And those few will be powerful to an imbalanced degree, because it will be difficult to match them with the new restrictions.

[registerednuisance]

I think 25 is too low to cap. A lot of things barely work at 25 (ex., hide).

I can get behind a 41 cap off the rip, but note that it will be impossible to compete with some of the 150k chars. (unless combat's revamp is going to even that out, which wouldn't make sense, because someone with sword at 81 is better than 41, period).

[Estelle]

Combat's revamp, from what I have heard, is going to make the outcome even more skill-level based instead of OOC knowledge-based.

[Temi]

However, you will be able to better compensate for lower skill by adding more people. Currently, adding a lower level person just doesn't help at all- new combat will address that.

[Wilderop]

I'm not in favor of caps because it would just encourage people to turtle their 150k characters. I don't see a problem with people having no limits on the character they create as long as they have the xp to create it. The 50% xp loss plus bonus xp loss at death is enough to make people turtle. Add to that having to grind back up their skills for several months and the situation only gets worse.

[Kinaed]

To note, folks:

With the return of seeking and new combat, LBU seeming reasonably fixed, a purchase skill cap is back in the cards. Several people commented here long ago, most of which no longer play. Anyone want to add anything?

As it is, I think the move will be unpopular, but I tend to agree that purchasing grandmaster skills is far too easy in comparison to grind to making grind appear worthwhile, and I strongly prefer the grind system on TI. Grind implies not only hard work but IC c practice at playing your role. I just can't see letting purchase trump that. From the perspective of new players not catching up, I think that's untrue with the overall skill cap in place as well as of minimal importance to closing this gap - eg, the earlier, the better as the issue will just cause more of a divide the longer uncapped purchasing on creation is available.