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All of the issues that are coming up lately have made me think at great length about what might be happening under the surface to lead to a lot of these conflicts. One thing that comes to mind to me is the unspoken "rules" that govern RP courtesy - and how people adhere to really entirely different sets of them. Some people are very strict, IC-first-and-only players who want to RP everything exactly as it lies, while others are more comfortable taking OOC factors into account. And I think these differences in opinion may be behind some considerable amount of the friction.

In my mind, this is a game, and while we should stay IC as much as possible, we should also focus on having fun. Without intending to target anyone in particular, without intending to denounce anyone's RP behavior, I'd like to start a conversation about ways in which I think we should - as a game - more regularly allow latitude and leeway for these OOC factors. I don't mean to claim I've always done these things, myself; they're honestly really HARD, in many situations. But I think we're a better game inasmuch as we do try to do them, and I'd like to hear other people's thoughts about this kind of thing too, whether you disagree or agree.

Some examples of the kind of things I'm thinking: I've often been on the receiving end of complaints that Knights weren't present at so-and-so event, for example, and so they suck at protecting us... but I was STing that event, so my Knight alt couldn't be present! Holding the absence of Knights at an event against a guild ends up penalizing characters for their players' amount of free time, even though that's nobody's intention originally. It might be kinder to RP that hey, the Knights must have all been busy/not available, maybe there's a personnel shortage, etc.

There's also the question of people generally doing crazy/out-there things to make RP happen. While I'm not suggesting we should let blatantly crazy/criminal/magical behavior just go, I think we sometimes are in a great big hurry to criticize other people's behavior ICly. And I don't mean to suggest that it isn't your right to disapprove ICly of others when they do stupid things!

But the way I think about it... sometimes you have to act a bit zany to throw a hook out to other people, and if somebody's taking the effort to throw a hook out, it's worth taking that hook and running with it. I've been working on actively doing this myself - maybe grumpily responding to the zany behavior, sure, but responding in a way that furthers the story rather than shutting it down.

There's also the idea of Reeves/Knights/Orderites chasing people out of scenes. Now, I have absolutely done this myself, when the scene involved a lingering magical aura that was causing harm to the people present. And I felt bad, and the people told to leave felt bad, and it's really made me think. We should try to minimize this behavior as much as possible. We can tell people to stand back, be careful, etc., but if we can at all avoid chasing people out of RP, we should definitely do so.

And we've talked on other threads, in other places, about 'letting the bad guys win'. This is something I feel is incumbent on said bad guys, too: to ask for negotiation and consideration in scenes and to design scenes where that consideration is reasonable. But it takes both sides. For those of us who aren't on the 'bad guy' side... if a bad guy does set up a scenario where they could maybe escape, allowing them to escape - and also not being harsh on other people ICly if they do choose to play the fumble and let the bad guy go - can really help with generating quality RP for everyone.

What does everybody think? Do these ideas make sense? Are there things I'm not considering in my suggestions, or other ways we might want to use OOC leeway to foster good story?

From what I can tell and have experienced in scenes before, these all seem like really good ideas.

1. Not Holding Guilds Responsible For Player Time Constraints
Oh, I've been on the receiving end of this for sure. When I was Laudate, actually, I remember encouraging a Bard to rpecho other Troubadour performers instead of interpreting the list of players present as the end-all-be-all of who was there. That might be a more difficult solution for Order folk, considering they're like to actually have to do something beyond just pose music/entertainment. Keeping in mind the broader context of Lithmore--particularly the larger population--it certainly seems more fair to consider the Knights understaffed and over-worked than incompetent.

2. Being Gentle With Crazy/Out-There To Generate RP
Considering I'm playing a ditzy little Jester now, I can certainly appreciate this suggestion. I haven't seen this not be the case, though. Generally so long as what the person does isn't outright dangerous/treasonous, my experience now and before shows this is already adhered to. Like Dice says, you can certainly still be grumpy or dissatisfied with it in character, but it's worth considering the 'No, but...' or 'Yes, and...' methods of response.

3. Being Chased Out of Scenes
Clearly civilians don't get to poke around crime scenes while detectives investigate them. But in some cases, the 'rooms' in the game are pretty big. So long as people aren't RPing in an intrusive manner while they look on, this point sounds great to me. One, I like seeing Order/Reeves work--it's very thematic and not RP I usually ever get to see, being primarily Troubadour based. Two, it's the best way to see how things go down, in case I ever wanted to make an Orderite/Reeve. And three, delicious, delicious RPXP...

All of these suggestions make great sense to me. RP works best when it's inclusive, and while I've really been non-included in my time here, I think if we all continue to be mindful of these ideas or adopt them where necessary, TI will remain awesome!

I think these are important considerations that could and should be made in an environment where people respect one another as players and contributors.

I completely understand why people might prefer to see only the IC situation as it presently exists and leave it at that. I sway between both poles, sometimes.

I can't honestly say I have ever been targeted by the OOC factors causing an IC circumstance (like a Knight not being able to attend an ST because it was run by their player, then being construed as ICly "villainous" for not being there), but I have certainly watched similar "Gotcha!"'s happen to others. It tends to leave a bad taste in the mouth, and that's understandable. If I spent days or weeks planning an ST and got raked over the coals because policy-wise my character couldn't be in attendance, I wouldn't feel real keen on running another one. A little bit of leeway could be healthy and a lot less discouraging.

Perhaps the context for OOC leeway could be: If there are OOC policy-related reasons why this individual couldn't be there, lets try and focus on other things in the scene, rather than their character's absence.

That is just one situation, of course, but the basic thought process is a little more universal.

On the rest... Everything Yrata said, +1.

Dice wrote: Some examples of the kind of things I'm thinking: I've often been on the receiving end of complaints that Knights weren't present at so-and-so event, for example, and so they suck at protecting us... but I was STing that event, so my Knight alt couldn't be present! Holding the absence of Knights at an event against a guild ends up penalizing characters for their players' amount of free time, even though that's nobody's intention originally. It might be kinder to RP that hey, the Knights must have all been busy/not available, maybe there's a personnel shortage, etc.

This is one of my pet peeves. I think I have heard this about every guild at one time or the other and the answer, to me, is that people need to understand that we all have families, jobs, school, extra-curricular activities, or really anything that is a demand on our time. TI is a great game with a great community but it ranks about 10th or 12th on my list of priorities. We shouldn't make people feel bad because they wanted to go see a movie with friends versus doing an ST.

Dice wrote:There's also the question of people generally doing crazy/out-there things to make RP happen. While I'm not suggesting we should let blatantly crazy/criminal/magical behavior just go, I think we sometimes are in a great big hurry to criticize other people's behavior ICly. And I don't mean to suggest that it isn't your right to disapprove ICly of others when they do stupid things!

This is tricky, right? Gerolf was the inquisitor/cardinal when Autumn was around. His response was simple enough, she was to be arrested on sight and had to openly condem her. He -had- to do that or someone would accuse him of being a heretic. I agree it is okay to do stupid stuff, but people have to realize that they will get yelled at for it.

I don't think that is trying to stifle creativity, it is just IC actions having IC consequences.

Dice wrote:There's also the idea of Reeves/Knights/Orderites chasing people out of scenes. Now, I have absolutely done this myself, when the scene involved a lingering magical aura that was causing harm to the people present. And I felt bad, and the people told to leave felt bad, and it's really made me think. We should try to minimize this behavior as much as possible. We can tell people to stand back, be careful, etc., but if we can at all avoid chasing people out of RP, we should definitely do so.

This is another one I have struggled with. My going in assumption is, that I need to issue the order but people don't have to follow it. There was one scene post demon attack where I told the crowds to dispurse. People could have slowly filtered out as their scenes wrapped up. Ever been to a big public event? It isn't like people just exodus an area right away.


These are just my thoughts on the points I really have an opinion about. I am all for coordinating RP but if you act blatantly stupid, expect to be called on it. People need to be considerate of OOC constraints, and theme. I don't want my character getting in trouble for coming up with creative RP. We have to act within the bounds established.

YrataOpTerpo wrote:And three, delicious, delicious RPXP...

Sweet sweet Heroic XP... find a reason to find a noble, Orderite, and cyan and keep them there. FOREVER.

Gerolf wrote:
This is tricky, right? Gerolf was the inquisitor/cardinal when Autumn was around. His response was simple enough, she was to be arrested on sight and had to openly condem her. He -had- to do that or someone would accuse him of being a heretic. I agree it is okay to do stupid stuff, but people have to realize that they will get yelled at for it.

Well, I'm definitely not talking Autumn-level shenanigans! I'm talking more about the borderline cases, where somebody does something that isn't illegal/heretical/magical but might just show a bit of dubious judgment, and they get shot down immediately. I 100% recognize this is something people differ on; I'm trying to point toward something like Yra said, with the "No, but..." or "Yes, and..." responses that further a scene.

For an IC example, I recently had Ariel drink a drugged drink intentionally. I had IC reason to do so, and spent some time coming up with IC details to justify the act. But the main reason I did it? I thought it would be a TOTALLY hilarious scene. Now, what ended up happening was an awesome example of things going right, actually. Everyone played along. Some IC attempts were made to get Ariel out of public, but a lot of the scene still got to play out in front of a bunch of people, and some PCs were allowed to come along in the end so the scene didn't just totally end. Ariel got scolded afterward for taking such a risk, but only mildly, and more in a way that was a discussion about "was this really wise?"

But it's an example of how badly things could have gone. I might have been dragged out of the scene and thrown into a room alone until the effect wore off, or lambasted at great length for doing something so utterly stupid and told one more such mistake would get him drummed out of the Knights, etc. If either of those things had happened, I'd probably think twice before making some fun mayhem happen again. Now those are some really extreme examples, but I hope they illustrate what I mean better than just being vague.

Yeah they do! I think we are in agreement.

I think it has to be situation specific. Gerolf was a public drunk. That was fun RP but he did get yelled at several times, including by Ariel.

I am just saying there has to be some give and take on both sides. People couldn't just ignore it, and not try something.

I agree with you, really. And, well, part of why I'm posting this is that I myself (playing a cantankerous PC) haven't always been as good as I could be in the past, and want to do better - striking the exact right balance between still ICly reacting and not discouraging RP.

Lots of good points. Culture and expectations are super important.

Regarding unfair criticism, I think there's a related but broader issue that is worth discussing and pointing out explicitly here (Yrata touched on it a bit already), and that's how to be mindful of the vNPC environment. I worry that many of us are not on the same page about this (either due to differing expectations or ignorance), and I think we need to remind each other during play that our PCs represent only a small fraction of the population of Lithmore. This is important not only to increase immersion and storytelling potential but also to discourage twinkery and unfair criticism.

As the player of a covert character, I am always trying to make sure that my actions would reasonably pass what I like to call the "vNPC check." That is, could I reasonably expect to get away with such-and-such devious plan in X location, given the vNPC environment and my character's abilities? My worst fear is taking these things into account, throwing myself into a risky situation, and having someone with no concept of the virtual environment arrive mid-scene and immediately make a mess of things already in progress by ignoring the context and charging full-speed-ahead-catch-the-bad-guy-mode.

I think being mindful of the virtual environment is important for ALL scenes and ALL character types -- not just coverts. When I venture into public RP, I often find myself in situations where other players aren't thinking about the vNPC environment at all. This can create unnecessary tension and confusion when two or more people are treating the context differently and with differing expectations.

My rule of thumb is that if it's ICly daytime, any street, road, or market is likely populated, and taverns are probably populated all night -- with busier hours during the day and after sundown. Does anyone else have any rules of thumb they'd like to share? Or thoughts on how to resolve differing expectations?

As for guild-specific issues, I agree that we need to go easier on guilds with regard to the occasional absence, and I think we need to find more constructive ways to address the gap between expectations and reality (e.g. the expectation that there are lots of vNPC Knights but the reality that there are relatively few PC Knights). For example, instead of circulating the rumor, "Those Knights are just the WORST. They're never there when you need them and they just let demons run amok all over the city!" one could circulate the following: "The Knights seem like they're spread awful thin, lately. When was the last time you saw a fresh recruitment announcement? I wonder if they'd offer any amenities for joining right now, what with the increased threat from the White Flame..." The first case is just harsh criticism that ignores both IC and OOC realities. The second is a constructive nudge.

Paying more attention to city metrics (and understanding what they represent) might be more fruitful and interesting than getting in a huff about how individual PCs reflect upon an entire institution. Right now, the Defense metric is at "substandard" -- which to me represents a great opportunity for a call to action to support the Knights and bolster their numbers, rather than just poo poo all over the guild because PC numbers are low or people have other responsibilities.

Re: culture and expectations:

Here's something I have personally struggled with in the past, as a covert, and I could actually use some advice on (hence the separate reply):

It is my understanding that wearing a hood indoors is rude and even a bit suspicious, but it's not illegal, and there are various reasons anyone might want to hide their face in public (such as keeping a low profile, avoiding unwanted attention). Yet, I can't walk into a populated public area in Northside with a hood up without every frickin' Reeve or Knight character immediately interrupting their conversations, turning to me, and demanding from across the room that I remove the hood right now or else, simply because they have the authority to do so, because having a hood up is codedly obvious, and because they OOCly assume I'm up to no good, even if my RP indicates I'm just minding my own business and trying to get out of some rainy weather. I mean, chances are I AM up to no good, and I wouldn't walk into these situations if I weren't game for some juicy conflict or tension, but I want people to respond to and acknowledge my RP, not the coded aspect of a hood. (I welcome the conflict, I just want it to be roleplayed.) I feel like 9 times out of 10, people react to the code when they see me enter and not my RP.

Am I off base, here? I'm wondering if I should keep struggling against this (as a cultural expectations issue that can be modified) or if I should just accept the notion that a coded hood is automatic grounds for immediate intense suspicion, to the point where all other factors should rightfully be ignored. If that's the case, then the helpfile, which says wearing a hood up is rude, could probably use an update... because 'rude' doesn't quite justify the responses I tend to get.