ti-legacy.com

Hi all,

It used to be the case where Freemen becoming Gentry was as common as mud, but it ironically feels that it is now easier to become a noble. Previously, one simply needed to reach a guildrank that was suitably prestigious, petition staff and that was all the justification needed. At some stage in the last two years, staff tightened that gap, and I think they were correct in doing so- gentryhood should represent a generational shift and shouldn't be easily obtainable. However, I do think it should still be possible under the appropriate circumstances. The first gentry had to come from somewhere and I don't think their numbers can be static, so there needs to be a flow in and out of the class through success and recognition on one hand and failing names/business ventures on the other.

I've searched around the helpfiles available in game and couldn't find anything pointing towards how it could be done at present. This point on the forums: http://ti-legacy.com/gentry/ is I think out of date, and concurs with the old way.

I would like to suggest the following 'gateways' and there are surely others. Basically, they shouldn't be easy or overnight but should be obtainable with considerable effort or investment:

a) Attainment and recognition - This would be for those that have attained and held high ranking positions for a considerable amount of time. I'm not sure this could best be measured... perhaps you need to obtain a lifetime tally of 250 (pulled from nowhere number) of IP (not including the default number). Or perhaps held an appropriate guild rank for x number of years.
b) Throw money at the problem - For the wealthy, probably the primary domain of merchants. To truly become established as a gentry, there would be a considerable monetary investment- I want to say in the vicinity of 25-40k that is 'lost' through greasing wheels, laying groundwork, etc. Potentially, this could have some sort of interplay with the asset system when it is introduced.

Would love to hear more thoughts.

Thanks,
TPB Margaux.

We are a bit lacking in this regard currently and with effective social class due to GLs coming into play, we don't now have to set GLs just because they are in the role. That said, these guidelines are something we want. And we want them to be meaningful, not just simple, automatic things. So, I'd be keen on hearing everyone's thoughts and ideas!

So, full disclosure: I'm playing a freeman GL right now who has an IC opportunity that hinges on him gaining gentry status in his own right, so I have a stake in how this shakes out, but I do think that if you're a freeman who manages to hold a GL position for a number of years, you should have the option to purchase the Gentry class if you want it, like Zeita suggested above - I'd imagine it would make sense from an IC perspective that if you hold down such a prestigious position for a long time, you'd also have many more opportunities and much more influence than the average Freeman, and would be in a much better position to ensure a legacy of wealth and power. It's pretty rare that a GL lasts that long in the role, so I don't think this will see a whole lot of freemen elevated.

Could we maybe have a mix of the two? Influence earned and gold? So for example if you hadn't been a GL but acquired a considerable amount of wealth, maybe it costs 40 gold. If you'd been a GL for ages, it costs 5 gold or whatever. The more influence earned the lower the cost.

Or maybe you spend influence directly?

I know I will likely be the odd man out here, but I've actually had very indepth rp as of late with a few people about what makes gentry gentry... The basic conclusion, Wealth.

What sets gentry apart from the other two classes? Their wealth. Nobility are not inherently rich, as their title is one that is often transferred through birthright, and the only way to really lose said birthright is to either muck up so bad that your domain turns against you or you are removed for crimes, or be killed. You can have poor Nobility, but you can't have poor Gentry. A gentry is defined by their wealth. If they can not maintain a certain amount of wealth, they are eligible to be demoted to freeman. Of course we never see this happen in game, but I like to think it's a commonly accepted aspect of theme.

What I am trying to say is that inorder for someone to obtain gentry, it should be required that they have the wealth to support it, and probably have made that wealth known, and secondly some level of influence is needed. Why I think influence is needed? Well surely someone has to vouch for you, as I assume gentryhood is not something one can just choose to take, but that a jury of sorts is required to either accept or deny the request. Like you'd have to make a legitimate case of why you should be given the rights that come with gentryhood. Not just "I have all this money."

Do I believe obtaining a rank in a guild should be some requirement? No. Any joeblow can achieve a difficult rank in any guild with enough time and effort. That doesn't set you apart from anyone else. Now if use that position to gain favor with important people who may vouch for you at this jury, yeah that would be beneficial, but the position should not be what determines whether or not you can apply. Wealth is what should be the most important, as that is what sets Gentry apart from the rest of the classes, they can not be poor. A gentry without money is not gentry.

tl;dr Gentry should be defined by wealth first and foremost, influence second, and a jury of sorts should be used to determine whether a person should be given the legal rights of gentry.

I Mostly second the above about Wealth and GL-ship. As a GL, You should only be considered gentry for as long as you hold the position and get stripped of it when you step off unless you can prove that you are able to keep that status and will continue keeping it like that until you bite the dust. Which means wealth, a fief of sorts-- one which you can continue to maintain, your own successful business, Influence.

I love throwing money at the problem as Z suggested, this however should come with some much needed scrutiny --that which is offered by the Order to people who intend to wed, but by their peers and the party responsible for granting such -- to see if the person can continue being all fluff and stuff, not just another freeman who three money to buy a status they now struggle to maintain. Nobles wouldn't be happy to see a lowly dude worthy of being their slave rise to be yet another one of those uppity freemen with silk[This is what I think should introduce the scrutiny factor, it would be nobles being all like 'Lets watch it closely and push it back as soon as it slips, it made the kingdom rich anyway and there is not much use for it now-- gives it a chance to try again and throw more money at us.' Besides all I said, I have nothing to add beside from what Vox said.