Gentry and the Southside

[Starstarfish]

So, I don't know if can post a log of Visnet and that being kosher, otherwise, I would. I would like to point out that the conversation on visnet on this topic as a person whose character was named made me feel frankly uncomfortable.

All that being said, a concern was raised and my character who was mentioned by name about a concern about RPing being Gentry (IE - by using a Gentry patronym via RP) while not having said patronym via the Wholist.

Let's discuss this to the manners I can without discussing IC info:

- Help metagaming says that using the Wholist to determine things to use IC isn't okay. So the idea of using the Wholist to determine if someone is "clearly lying" about something I'd argue is meta, but that's just my opinion.

- Characters can gain the RP right to use patronyms via RP because of taking on GL positions. At a time even recently, that meant one could request to staff to be set with Gentry status. (And thus showing your patronymic on the Wholist.) This was changed at some point shortly before assets were introduced.

There is now a like sub-Gentry status for people who only have Gentry status at the moment because of their GL position. To my understanding one of the inspirations for that is because those people are not considered "true Gentry" or whatnot for the purposes of purchasing or having Gentry level assets. You can read meetings from the OOC logs, I've brought up concern and question on the oddity of that before. But as assets aren't typed to positions/Guild clanning I don't know how that would work. I do think that having someone in an RP position of great power and authority pulling Freeman pay is ... awkward for RP, but I've said my peace on that.

- This was also around the same time that the idea of purchasing Gentry status for an on grid character (and thus gaining the right to higher level assets) became an option for thousands of silver. So the issue is not spending RPXP in chargen or after the fact (which I would do) but on grid silver. I was honestly thinking about doing that, however, I debated the merits of doing so for various IC reasons too long and missed the window to purchase silver with RPXP for an on-grid character.

- Not everyone is prompted at the Southside border to write a cnote because of some code things as explained above. I personally have never gotten that warning once during the times that I've visited there for various IC reasons. So, if that's a concern people have about people of certain statuses being able to do that, or wanting them to get prompted for the cnote, please note that for discussion here or at an OOC meeting. I don't disagree, but I can say there's situations where that currently isn't the case.

[kipperialovskii]

I felt flattered being used as an example by a player, but somewhat... Nervous, when directly namedropped when it became a question of policy.

Though, I was told that a solution would be clear, as the following:

There is something called -effective class-. It's kinda like a temporary boost, rather than relying on RP where mechanics work against the player. Temporary-made gentry are unable to go southside, to my understanding, but enjoy the social respect of being amongst their betters. They are allowed in many advantageous places where it cannot be questioned why they're even there. (Aside from rumors and those of purist views on class.)

You may view your own 'effective class' by typing 'purchase'.

There's no harsh feelings, and there's always much to learn!

If you have any critiques of my RP, please email me at Kipperdragonov@gmail.com.

[Kinaed]

I can barely make out what this post is about, but what I do know is that using a patronym is not illegal if you're not a noble or gentry. At best, people might view a character doing that as pompous.

[Rothgar]

I can barely make out what this post is about, but what I do know is that using a patronym is not illegal if you're not a noble or gentry. At best, people might view a character doing that as pompous.

Call me crazy, but using context clues from the two posts made here, I'd say that there's a larger concern about someone name-dropping character names in visnet because of a potential Policy concern. If I was a betting man, I'd wager

So, I don't know if can post a log of Visnet and that being kosher, otherwise, I would. I would like to point out that the conversation on visnet on this topic as a person whose character was named made me feel frankly uncomfortable.

and

I felt flattered being used as an example by a player, but somewhat... Nervous, when directly namedropped when it became a question of policy.

Imply that these players are trying to be polite about getting namedropped in that situation and not put anyone on blast, but are still very concerned that someone was able to do so without being reprimanded or what have you.

The other conversation is about Gentry status being granted IC'ly to characters.

Characters can gain the RP right to use patronyms via RP because of taking on GL positions. At a time even recently, that meant one could request to staff to be set with Gentry status. (And thus showing your patronymic on the Wholist.) This was changed at some point shortly before assets were introduced.

And then, finally, about aforementioned characters going to Southside with/without cnotes.

Not everyone is prompted at the Southside border to write a cnote because of some code things as explained above. I personally have never gotten that warning once during the times that I've visited there for various IC reasons. So, if that's a concern people have about people of certain statuses being able to do that, or wanting them to get prompted for the cnote, please note that for discussion here or at an OOC meeting. I don't disagree, but I can say there's situations where that currently isn't the case.

Hope that helps, Kinaed.

As for the situation here, I'm uncertain as to why it was an issue raised in the first place. Gentry going down to Southside is an IC decision, right? And if you're in the correct position (Justiciar, Poet Laudate, Prime Medicus, High/Grand Inquisitor), you're more or less given those rights. I know this might surprise some people, but there is a reason that you're expected to bow to the Justiciar and the Grand Inquisitor, and it's not because they wear gold. I've literally never heard an argument say otherwise - that we shouldn't respect the upper class as respected members of Lithmore because they're theoretically not Gentry - but hey. If you want to try that, please be my guest. If it's an OOC concern that someone is using a patronym when they're not supposed to? Well, handle it IC'ly. You can prove that pretty dang easily. 'Help player [player]' will give you an insight into the character's backstory, and usually contains the reason for such a decision.

[Percival]

Hey gang! To give better context, someone was asking on Visnet if it's okay for non-gentry to take patronymns. They said there are at least two examples on WHO right that moment.

I said "Oh, check with Nadya! I think he's a GL so he gets a patronymn. Best ask him."

Then I think it all spiralled downwards with people thinking other people were being accused of things.

The topic that was originally about: if you can temporarily become freeman to be able to enter southside, and the example on the wholist was used to support their idea while people were going to southside to help with the fires.

Hope that clears things up!

[Kinaed]

I don't think name dropping is okay, but I also don't think that's what happened from Percival's description (or wasn't the intent at least). Who knows, I could be wrong, having not witnessed the conversation and without seeing a log to know how it came across. I'd have to see the log for context.

Having said that, I'd far prefer if posts on the forums like this don't contain policy concerns and that policy questions be sent directly to me. The rest of it is fine, but there's no reason to bring up a policy accusation in this post.

The rest of it seems reasonably answered. Please deal with the use of patronyms ICly. No, the use of patronyms by freemen is not a legal matter.

[Andruid]

The crux of the question was whether GLs who are Freemen have access to Southside, despite the fact that they sign with patronyms and get all the social benefits of gentryhood. The concern was that this was a loophole, allowing Freemen in public positions of power to enter Southside unchecked and without danger.

The answer, as was confirmed by Temi on Visnet, is that GLs who are de-facto gentry (basically, any 1st or 2nd GL of a non-covert guild) are codedly given gentry status for the duration of their guild leadership, even though they don't (or, rather, didn't) have a patronym on the wholist. Even my nobleman was bumped DOWN to gentry when he became a GL.

So, no, there is no loophole. Unfortunately, I was away from Visnet when this conversation originally occurred, or I would have been glad to put folks at ease before things got... well, uneasy.

[Kinaed]

Freemen GLs who become gentry are treated solely as gentry for purposes of code. This would not be a source of access to Southside.

There are multiple legitimate ways for a gentry char to gain access to Southside, from travelling in groups to disguises to guild pass tokens. It's hard to say when and how a character has access, but you can rest assured if they codewise do, it's probably IC and should be treated as such.

[Andruid]

Freemen GLs who become gentry are treated solely as gentry for purposes of code. This would not be a source of access to Southside.

There are multiple legitimate ways for a gentry char to gain access to Southside, from travelling in groups to disguises to guild pass tokens. It's hard to say when and how a character has access, but you can rest assured if they codewise do, it's probably IC and should be treated as such.

That's what I thought, but it was suggested at the OOC chat that the Grand Inquisitor role does not confer de-facto gentry status. If this is true, it should probably be discussed, as I would expect the GI, someone of extremely high status and importance in Lithmore, to be de-facto gentry (a privilege I assume is shared by the Earl Marshall) and therefore held to similar standards as other gentry in the Holy Order. While I'm sure there's an argument to be made about the GI being able to run rampant around Southside due to Southsiders' fear of retribution/love of the Lord, Southside is still a lawless and dangerous place. One needn't expect every thug to think before acting, etc. etc.

[Rothgar]

That's what I thought, but it was suggested at the OOC chat that the Grand Inquisitor role does not confer de-facto gentry status. If this is true, it should probably be discussed, as I would expect the GI, someone of extremely high status and importance in Lithmore, to be de-facto gentry (a privilege I assume is shared by the Earl Marshall) and therefore held to similar standards as other gentry in the Holy Order. While I'm sure there's an argument to be made about the GI being able to run rampant around Southside due to Southsiders' fear of retribution/love of the Lord, Southside is still a lawless and dangerous place. One needn't expect every thug to think before acting, etc. etc.

Dunno why you're so focused on the GI spot, but like stated above your post, there's more than likely IC reasons for it, and it should be handled IC'ly. If you want to have the rabble attack the GI on sight, well, there's IC ways to make that happen. You'll have to deal with the IC consequences of that.

If you want to see a code change solely for the GI's position concerning Gentry status, well, that's an entirely different conversation. I'd wager that no one has a problem with that, unless anyone is bothered about getting free Gentry status?