The future of whoinvis

[Kinaed]

As per the OOC Chat - what should the future of whoinvis be, folks?

[Popcorn]

I like the way it's slated to go, defaulting off each time you log in. I think people tend to set-and-forget (in fact, I've done that before without realising it, and gone all night whoinvis when I didn't actually want to be). If people do genuinely want to be whoinvis all the time, they'll have to swap it the same way they do with RP currently, and I think that's fine.

[kipperialovskii]

I'm not against whoinvis existing at all. However, one must admit, there seems to be a bit of a problematic mentality surrounding it.

I don't quite know why, but it feels as if a bunch of incognito, or otherwise antagonist players, feel the need to be consistently whoinvis. To the point in where it was discussed that it would be unplayable for a few people, if the change came to pass. The wholist is OOC knowledge. Poking people for RP may be up to preference if you see them online, but in the end? It's OOC info. Just don't include incriminating things in your help-file.

The current change seems to cover the mainline issue, honestly.

[AlwaysShunny]

As someone who has hid on WHOINVIS as a villain in the past, I am in favor of it being nerfed. Reading over the OOC Meeting log, there seems to be a mentality where people don't like that a wanted person must always be on the run. That's part of the risk of being a villain though. You do bad things, you get notoriety for it, the lawfuls are now on the lookout for you. Constantly. That means that if your character is in the game, whether they are visible on WHO or not, they are being hunted.

[Kinaed]

"In favor of whoinvis being nerfed"... what is an appropriate nerf? Just making it default off on login, or do people have other ideas/suggestions?

Anyone want it removed all together? Should I start a poll?

[AlwaysShunny]

I'd like it removed altogether, since I feel like it isn't used for what it seemed to be intended for, and I don't think that the reasons people are using it now for justify its existence. I can understand if others don't agree though.

[Voxumo]

I'm personally in favor of it remaining the way it is currently, persisting beyond log in. I primarily use whoinvis on my GL, versus my alts. As a GL, it seems like everybody wants your time, yet sometimes ya just want to be able to rp without getting assaulted oocly via tells and whatnot. There are days I want to just find rp, versus trying to have a scene and get bombarded with messengers. But in the same vein if I know I have alot of time, and I don't have other scenes already scheduled, I turn whoinvis off should anyone have the desire to know I am logged on. And it's not rp avoidance, as I don't turn whoinvis on, and lurk in places people can't get. I typically have said character go about their daily routine, in the same locations as they normally would... just without folks being aware i'm online. If they knew my characters routines and typical hangouts, they would find them easily enough.

And as someone pointed out, who is ooc knowledge, so having your name hidden on who should have no affect on yours or others rp. I mean let's be honest here, the change currently where it resets upon log in, it's not going to change anything. If someone wants to remain hidden, they will type whoinvis faster than a hummingbird's breath and before anyone can even know they logged in. The only thing this change is doing is making it more of a hassle, and ensuring people don't forget they have it on, but that's a minor thing.

I'd like it removed altogether, since I feel like it isn't used for what it seemed to be intended for, and I don't think that the reasons people are using it now for justify its existence. I can understand if others don't agree though.

You do raise an interesting question... what was the intended purpose of such a command? Is there a set purpose or is it a vague purpose that is highly subjective?

[Helena]

Whoinvis comes with the fact that people using it avoid being on the receiving end of the RP, and while there are certainly many valid reasons for them to do so, I find the concept unpleasant.

So, I would like it to be removed:
- knowing who is online is OOC and useful to RP, and vilains deserve to be visible on who,
- warranted people can toggle whererp off to be protected from OOC abuse,
- people willing to remain unknown can use a fake name thanks to "remember",
- people not willing to receive messengers can use "message reject The requested person can not be found",
- people disturbed by tells can toggle them off.

[Puciek]

I'm personally in favor of it remaining the way it is currently, persisting beyond log in. I primarily use whoinvis on my GL, versus my alts. As a GL, it seems like everybody wants your time, yet sometimes ya just want to be able to rp without getting assaulted oocly via tells and whatnot. There are days I want to just find rp, versus trying to have a scene and get bombarded with messengers. But in the same vein if I know I have alot of time, and I don't have other scenes already scheduled, I turn whoinvis off should anyone have the desire to know I am logged on. And it's not rp avoidance, as I don't turn whoinvis on, and lurk in places people can't get. I typically have said character go about their daily routine, in the same locations as they normally would... just without folks being aware i'm online. If they knew my characters routines and typical hangouts, they would find them easily enough.

And as someone pointed out, who is ooc knowledge, so having your name hidden on who should have no affect on yours or others rp. I mean let's be honest here, the change currently where it resets upon log in, it's not going to change anything. If someone wants to remain hidden, they will type whoinvis faster than a hummingbird's breath and before anyone can even know they logged in. The only thing this change is doing is making it more of a hassle, and ensuring people don't forget they have it on, but that's a minor thing.

I'd like it removed altogether, since I feel like it isn't used for what it seemed to be intended for, and I don't think that the reasons people are using it now for justify its existence. I can understand if others don't agree though.

You do raise an interesting question... what was the intended purpose of such a command? Is there a set purpose or is it a vague purpose that is highly subjective?

The change to have whoinvis off when you log in will mean that whois of players will be updated when they log in. Meaning that at the very least with whois we will be able to tell if someone is playing the game at all, no longer have to guess if they have gone permanently whoinvis or quit. This is a big difference, because why would you keep stalking someones daily routines if they've quit playing weeks ago? Waste of time for everyone involved.

The reason for whoinvis in the first place was on request of knights so mages won't be able to decide, by use of who, if it's safe or not to go and do the evil deeds (see no knights online, go and do evil etc), the use of it by criminals was not the intent. I am happy with keeping whoinvis for that role, as it's great to combat all sort of RP avoidance, but it sadly mostly took the turn for what it is now for some players, and that should be addressed somehow. I am not sure how.

You can also mute down tells with deaf command, very handy alternative to whoinvis to avoid tells (I use it a lot). Maybe we should get similar command for messengers to just have a blanket timeout on them, without even reaching your prompt? Could help.

Whoinvis comes with the fact that people using it avoid being on the receiving end of the RP, and while there are certainly many valid reasons for them to do so, I find the concept unpleasant.

So, I would like it to be removed:
- knowing who is online is OOC and useful to RP, and vilains deserve to be visible on who,
- warranted people can toggle whererp off to be protected from OOC abuse,
- people willing to remain unknown can use a fake name thanks to "remember",
- people not willing to receive messengers can use "message reject The requested person can not be found",
- people disturbed by tells can toggle them off.

The best way to not be foundable by messengers is to just do messenger reject or let them time out. When you attach some words to the reject you are essneitally returning a custom message, but when you do message reject, it goes OOCly unheard and that is the end of it - messenger wasn't able to deliver the message. It doesn't mean that you are online and/or ignoring someone.

[Andruid]

I think it has some limited utility in protecting against passive metagaming of the wholist and that the benefits might slightly outweigh the cons. As I've argued elsewhere, years ago, I don't think anyone who is whoinvis should be granted any kind of IC protection from any IC means of targeting, including messengers (which was thankfully fixed) and spells (no idea if this was ever fixed/addressed).