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Greetings,

Players don't seem to trust Order players not to use their mages to help their order character or vice versa. There are frequent policy complaints in this arena, and though I've actually only rarely found any evidence of crossover beyond pbase misgivings, it's been on Staff Talking points for awhile due to players perpetually raising the question.

Staff understand the psychological reasoning behind the issue, and we generally agree that it'd be nice if we had the pbase and interest in the Order required to fully segregate Order players from mage players. Every time we consider it, however, we worry no one will want to play the Order at all. We also want to trust our players to be good, mature RPers and let the pbase know that, unless we have a reason to distrust someone (eg, past policy issues or hard evidence), we choose to trust them. That said, we also believe that even though our experience of Order players who play mage players is that they're extremely mature and generally very careful about what they do (knowing they're under a perpetual microscope), there's still a constant choice that has to happen to weigh up what they know, what they use, and what they don't - people simply cannot unknow what they know. This makes it more complicated than simple segregation would be.

It is possible for us to, for example, make it so that mage players get an error if they attempt to join the Order or our character generation system doesn't offer mage characters to Order members... but do we want to segregate to that degree?

Staff discussions aren't really solving for all of the issues, so here we are kicking it back to the pbase for views. Let us know what you think via a vote and comments below!

I think there's a line. And, this is coming from a player that has an Order character and a mage.

I purposely play an Order character that does not have anything to do with magery investigation/capture/interrogation/etc. So, I'm able to keep my mage and my order character completely separate, because my Order character does not do anything with mages.

I think it would be awful to box players in to 'either order or mage', however, even if they've not positioned it the way I have. Considering both the Order and the mages are greatly needed for theme - we are all trusted to not cross our characters. Order/Mage cross should be no different, especially if the cases raised have been fruitless and haven't been a problem.

It'd be vastly different if you had found a lot of policy violations, in my opinion.

There are concerns about a lot of things that people do on TI, but unless those concerns are proven and verified I don't believe concern alone should dictate policy unless it happens to be a proven trend. It is difficult to play both a mage character and an order character, especially if you're on the Knight side of things. It is possible though, so long as clear lines are adhered to. I don't think disalowing mage alts would be very beneficial to the Order, a guild which already struggles for active membership to make it even less attractive for possible candidates.

I voted no. One thing that maybe hadn't been mentioned is that even when you have a player that obeys the rules, avoiding crossover can cause other issues. It can make aspects of an investigations feel odd ICly when certain characters can't get involved in investigations when ICly they feel the most appropriate. Either way though, I wouldn't be upset if it remained allowed.

I think it'd be easier overall if they were separated.

There's already similar policy where you can't have alts in both Reeves and Brotherhood. The Brotherhood likewise generally has poor numbers, but I don't think people would say it's a great idea to allow players with reeve characters to have a brotherhood alt, either.

It can, for example, lead to instances where people might go to an orderite/reeve to unknowingly report that orderite/reeve's alt. And while I trust that player to remove themselves from any investigation into their alt, it's still awkward and immersion-breaking.

The reference to Reeves and Brotherhood is spot on for me, but also, having played both sides I am voting no. We've already made it so mages cannot be actively in the Order, I think a full disconnect should be made. If it discourages people from playing the Order, I think the solution is to do something else than allow the potential meta. Again my opinion comes from playing both sides, and sometimes at the same time. I understand the potential issues with having one of each and how easily distrust (even if nothing actually happened) can occur. There is a very fine line, and I think often that line is danced on.

Taunya wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:29 pm

I think it'd be easier overall if they were separated.

There's already similar policy where you can't have alts in both Reeves and Brotherhood. The Brotherhood likewise generally has poor numbers, but I don't think people would say it's a great idea to allow players with reeve characters to have a brotherhood alt, either.

It can, for example, lead to instances where people might go to an orderite/reeve to unknowingly report that orderite/reeve's alt. And while I trust that player to remove themselves from any investigation into their alt, it's still awkward and immersion-breaking.

The difference being is that Mages are not a guild, they're individuals and not automatically in direct opposition to the Order like the Brotherhood is to the Reeves. We may as well bring the Manus back if we all wish to completely separate it.

The reference to Reeves and Brotherhood is different to me.

Mages do not have a guild, they are expected to blend into normal society. They don't have the built in GLs and support that guilds do. They have to ICly go *find* one another, they can't just join a guild and connect with everyone that way. Very much not the same.

Taunya wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:29 pm

It can, for example, lead to instances where people might go to an orderite/reeve to unknowingly report that orderite/reeve's alt. And while I trust that player to remove themselves from any investigation into their alt, it's still awkward and immersion-breaking.

I have had to do this with characters that don't have anything to do with the Order or mages. "I'm sorry, I can't take part in this, cross." And then drop it. It doesn't take mage/order to create situations where people have to bow out because of cross.

We can't eliminate all circumstances of this just because it happens occasionally for order/mage characters - it happens all over the place. If you do that, then why bother allowing people to have multiple characters?

That's a good point, that Mages don't have a guild. Sure, there isn't an official guild but most -do- operate with a few others in a circle. Just because Mages don't have a guild, doesn't mean that there can be problematic interactions between alt characters. And I'm not saying it's intentional, (I mean, it could be but doesn't have to be), but there are situations that just don't seem right. These do exist outside of Mage/Orderite rp, same with Reeve/Bhood rp too. I'm not singling out just the two groupings. If you're arguing for keeping Mage alts/Orderite alts (depending on the main), why stop Mages from making Orderites? Sure, it's not the same thing, having a mage in the Order vs having a Mage potentially helping the Order OR the other way around, an Orderite helping mages, etc. There's more than one reason, some more glaring than others. I will also append that I'm just getting done with a Christmas party and will likely revisit everything I've said and make it more concise, and to the point later.