In what circumstances should you deny a PC (cyan or otherwise) entry into a guild?

[phoenixdoll]

"Someone else wanted to bring this up, but they're not here, so it falls to me!
Cyans: Love 'em or hate 'em, they're the future of TI, so can we please keep in mind to try and
encourage their RP wherever possible? We're mostly great at being friendly in visnet, but there's
been a few times where a brand new player has been ignored or directly called out for making
mechanical mistakes, and that stuff is SUPER discouraging. MUDs are hard, and mistakes get made. The
Policy (somewhere) states to give them preferential treatment, so if your IC is 50/50 on a subject,
please be flexible and give them the benefit of the doubt."" ---

I am the idiot friend who slept through OOC chat and who wanted desperately to talk on this topic, and so thank you to Nemo for trying to raise this issue on my behalf.

The question I had for the player base is "In what circumstances should you deny a PC entry into a guild?"

I've tried to see if there is a policy around this specific issue, but I can't see it.

The reasons why I think this is important to consider guild sponsorship and guild membership is that being involved in a guild, at least as my experience playing TI since May this year, is very important to be able to progress mechanically.

I accept that there are occasions IC and OOC where someone's bid to join a guild is not going to be successful, I'm not saying that everyone should just be allowed in **just** because they applied, cyan or otherwise. I am NOT saying that a welcoming OOC environment means that the IC environment has to be without trials or even without unpleasantness or even outright hostility and persecution.

But I am querying whether there is a policy around denying someone entry into a guild, and if not, if there should be?

To be clear, recently I was witness to a scene where someone was denied entry into a guild and the IC reasons provided were unclear to me in the actual text of the scene that I was witness to. I approached these players over pboard and cc'd staff and the players were able to provide reasonable IC reasons for not admitting the character.. But the thing that still troubles me today is that 1. very few of those genuinely held IC opinions were because of the specific actions or specific traits of the specific player character who was attempting to join the guild. And 2. the reason for declining sponsorship was given IC but did not cover the opinions as detailed in point 1. It wasn't clear to me how the player character could succeed on joining the guild other than changing their entire concept and backstory... or like, ICly making up lies about how he wanted to go about it.

Of course, denying characters on their backstory and reasoning can be appropriate. For example, it is inappropriate for an openly heretical character to expect to be admitted as an acolyte. Expect to be admitted to a pyre, sure. And there are occasions where a character might say they want to join X guild for Y reasons, and the sponsor / guild leader will give them advice that Y reasons would make them a better fit for Z guild. I've redirected people to other guilds that would better fit their interests and motivations.

But the thing which troubled me was that the IC reason provided over OOC (when I didn't ask for it) was "we've seen X from people who join for this reason and so I will decline" which.. was not conveyed in the actual scene and was only conveyed to me as I queried if everything was okay. But in all seriousness, I had my husband look over the logs of the scene afterwards and he said that if he had been the new player he would have quit as he read it, as I did, of an attack on the character concept itself.

This behaviour wasn't exclusive to this person, so I don't want to single them out or make them feel bad. I think they are a fun person to roleplay with, and as I said earlier, I do believe that they had reasonable IC reasoning for their actions and I am not asking them to defend their reasoning. I am however asking if guild membership is something that should have a pretty compelling reason to decline, considering the mechanical need to join a guild in order to progress with certain skills which are integral to certain character archetypes.

Now, I am a GL for a covert guild. Probably the worst covert GL the game has ever seen, but I'm doing my best. If someone came to me with their character concept being "I'm the thiefiest thief who ever thiefed please let me do this for the brotherhood" I'd admit them, as long as I was OOCly and ICly sure that they were aware that this is for life. If they are a cyan, they get a cyan warning. And if they frak up? That's where the magic of conflict RP happens, friends.

So yeah. I want to encourage all of us who are in the position of sponsoring people, if we are on the cusp of 50/50 admitting someone, to actually consider saying not no, not yes, but to say either "no, and," or "no, but," or "yes, and" or "yes, but" to their request. Flat yes or no answers are fine, but when you could go that next step, why wouldn't you?

What do you think about that?

[Taunya]

It's a matter of the GLs' discretion. They can admit or reject for any reason. I think there is a helpfile on guildleader responsibilities, however.

I've had more character-building RP come from a rejection than from acceptance into a guild before, and there's always ways to pursue it. From persuasion, to having them killed, and plenty in-between.

[nemovonfish]

In this context, we're talking about the sponsorship one needs to get before one can apply. GLs aren't involved until the seeker has their sponsor.

[Taunya]

There's even more recourse in such cases- either finding another sponsor, or appealing to the GLs who can use IP to guild without sponsors.

[Dreams]

The administration has mentioned that as long as a guild is active with a few people, people can be accepted or denied into a guild for whatever reason the guildleaders decide - cyan or not. As long as a guild is active and flourishing, it's up to the GLs. Some are nicer and give people a chance, some are very, very picky.

Cyan status gives people preferential RP, but it doesn't mean they automatically get guilded just because they are cyans. Since pretty much everyone seeks a guild as a cyan, this means that they'd be required to get into whatever guild they wanted always, and that's not how it happens.

Cyan status also doesn't mean they automatically can convince one of the other guild members to sponsor them so they can get into the guild.

ICly, guild acceptance needs to be thematic. If the IC behavior of the cyan means they might not get in, they probably won't get in. If the guildleader has a certain prejudice, they may not get in. (This could be anything - if they simply annoy the guildleader because their hair is purple, or doesn't like the way they address them, or if they don't like the way they curtsey.) It is thematic for people to be super judgemental/prejudice, and it isn't a 'warn' situation if it's an action that is specific to the GL's character traits - you don't warn someone because their crooked curtseys might not get them in, because revealing something about the GL character isn't necessary. Wondering why they didn't get in can create a lot of RP, actually.

I saw the recent rumors in game, and I have a feeling this is where it is coming from. People need to have thought behind why they want to join a guild, otherwise it won't last anyway. "Because it runs in my family," or, "To help people," are reasons that, as a GL, I've never accepted, either - in either of my GL positions. I conduct an online interview for the guild much like I conduct an RL one. If I'm hiring for a flaky job, a flaky excuse is good. If I'm hiring for a serious job, you need solid reasons you want to be there, or I'm going to pick someone else who has better ones. Because, ICly? There isn't just one person seeking the guild - vNPCs always exist.

Now, I don't just throw them out and go, "Nope, sorry." I prompt them for more, and hopefully they are capable of giving me more. If not, they might not be allowed in.

I think that a lot of situations now are being looked at as, "I didn't get what I want," rather than being looked at as, "How is this going to generate RP for me?" If looked at the second way, you can stir up tons of RP both from acceptance and rejections.

[phoenixdoll]

Just as a quick clarification, I cyan warn cyans who seek Brotherhood as its an irreversible decision... Or supposed to be. I'm not saying you should warn for crooked curtseys.

But real talk the scene I witnessed the sponsor hyper focused on the guy talking about how he'd learnt medicine "from his father" and then disregarded everything else that was said. Everything else. And then told them why, but not how they could improve. There's no policy requirement to do so, it's not wrong.

It's fine and dandy to do so icly, and I did not intend to turn this into a discussion about what is themely.

But I feel very strongly that when we take a hostile action IC with a new player that we should try and make sure there is no possible interpretation OOC that the new player is unwelcome.

And honestly the osay I saw and the rp was not a good feeling for me.

I compared it to my own experiences on my bard character who was initially denied, which was awesome rp! I felt OOCly welcomed by Theodora reacting to my questionable IC behaviour. And this decline of sponsorship felt like "go away" on an ooc level, which I don't believe was intentional..

I guess my question is that yeah, how can we make sure that rejection is fun ooc?

[Dreams]

I guess my question is that yeah, how can we make sure that rejection is fun ooc?

There is no way to guarantee this. We have no idea how the other person will react OOCly, or what they'll take personally. No matter how fun you try to make it, someone will be upset that they didn't get what they wanted.

However, if this was about a single interaction with a single player and a GL, and isn't based on cyans and guilds as a whole generically, I'm not sure this is the appropriate medium.

[Puciek]

Historically denying entry and kicking people out of guilds in the past has been done for what outsiders may consider very trivial reasons and that's fine. People in power do not have more burden to control their personalities, quirks, and wantons - quite the opposite, if your character has power they are free to swing it around - that includes denying people entry into the guild. They can go and gather all the sponsors they want, but if the GL with no exception hates Tubori, and the applicant is Tubori, then the applicant is screwed.

And that's fine, and if as a result the applicant plotting revenge which may culminate in the GL having it's skull bashed in, vacating the position for someone else - that's great! If they decide to sulk and get OOCly annoyed... that's less great, but then it's something they will have to figure out how to get over with eventually. Not all rp will go according to their plan, sometimes it may even harm their character, and that's just how it is, and I don't think we should be going extra length to protect people form it, cyan or not.

What you can offer cyans during the interview is a bit more isight into rejection reasons which they oocly may not appreciate (ongoing racism for example), or suggest that this is not end of all, and that there are always ways to get rid of the GL who refused them, and then next one may be more welcoming. In essence help to OOCly guide them on how to handle it.

Though I will say that all of this has to done with OOC respect for the players involved. It's easy to just refuse/kick out someone in a letter, but that's usually not very respectful to the player, and I would say that unless circumstances really prevent it, it is always best to do this in person. It still won't be fun to get rejected, but hopefully it will understand that this is at OOCly you respect them. Maybe even add a reco encouraging them to seek alternative solution to achieving their goals.

[galaxgal]

Let me offer the flip side here: Keep in mind that as a GL you should remember that every member you add to your guild also increases your workload. These are people who are going to need to be engaged with scenes and potentially have their promotion tracked and so on and so forth depending on your Guild's policy.

I think it's probably far more damaging for a player to join the guild, have nothing to do or nothing to learn because the GL and 2GL are overwhelmed due to treating every seeker scene as a rubber-stamp, than for there to be some potential internal or external conflict from a hard or soft rejection.

If a player takes it so personally that they quit the game because of being denied entry to a Guild how are they going to react to getting robbed, stabbed, hexed, arrested, or any of the other bad things that can happen in the game, things that are out of my control. Now obviously there are ways to make this more enjoyable than a closing 'no', like giving out 'tests' or 'quests' of some kind but it's not a good mindset to go "I am seeking therefore I should get in 99/100 times".

[mystry]

Hi there.

I'm going to provide some clarity on the matter which engendered this topic.

The cyan individual was denied (initially, not permanently), because their character did not have a strong IC motivation for joining, when the guild they were attempting to join is frequently responsible for people's lives.

And quite frankly, both myself, and the individual who denied sponsorship to the cyan in question are getting a little tired of this OOC lambasting over an IC decision.

Cyan protection is to help newbies not lose characters or be unduly punished for lack of OOC knowledge of customs, IC etiquette, or game culture. It is not a 'get into any guild free' card.

EDIT: All of this was also explained to the original poster in the pboard they sought out.

EDIT 2: And just to preemptively counter what I know will be posted to this, yes, the cyan individual was told both ICly and OOCly the reasons for the rejection, and was informed that it was not permanent, just until they could come up with a better IC motivation.