Unwelcoming Game

[BlackSoul566]

So over the past few weeks that I've been playing TI again, I've come to realize that as a whole, the game is particularly unwelcoming to me, and players like me for a number of reasons. I've mentioned that there are cultural differences that I've experienced here, that I haven't in -any- other game before.

In any other game, the mechanics, and the mechanical strings related to IC actions are typically taken as a support to your roleplay, and doesn't count as a pose in and of itself. In all of my experience as a player over the last nine years of roleplaying, this is the only game I've ever been on when people pose me into a scene, before I've actually posed my arrival, which honestly, I kind of feel is a bit disrespectful. Every other mu game I've played, mostly MUSHes, the players allow for either A, a set pose which is that one player will write out a longer than normal pose that includes a general synopsis of what's going on in the scene. Where players are, loosely, and a general understanding of what they have posed themselves to be doing. OR B, the player will wait for a full round of poses to go by, before they pose their own introduction into the scene, and THEN it is appropriate to pose interacting with them and their arrival. Sometimes, both will occur, honestly. At least, from my experience. But it's weird for me to have people pose my arrival for me, or pose a reaction to me drinking or eating, just because I ran the code, even if I haven't included that into my pose yet.

Secondly, this is the only game that so sharply encourages lower quality poses as described in this https://ti-legacy.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2243 post. Personally, this makes the game entirely unwelcoming for me. I'm a slower poser, as I take my time to write out and detail how my character is involved in the scene they are in, and how they are reacting to everthing. At one point, someone commented on this that longer poses is more for private scenes, and that seems... Wrong to me. Firstly, it's the sort of thing that will encourage me to ONLY do private scenes, with those players that I know I can RP with. Secondly, like I mentioned during staff discussion a couple of weeks back, this is the ONLY game I've been on that doesn't inherently default to a pose order, EVEN for larger scenes. This is an important courtesy for all of the players involved, as it allows each player a chance to interact, and to have their roleplay be impactful to the scene. Granted, for those larger scenes, typically I've seen 3pr adopted, which is a tactic to still follow a much looser pose order. Essentially, you just wait until three other players have made their pose, before you yourself pose. Even going to that typically players will OOCly discuss it before doing something like that unless it's a particularly large scene, like six or more players.

Which brings me to my third point. This is also the only game I have ever scene that actively discourages OOC communication as described https://ti-legacy.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2299 here. In every other game, there are OOC channels related to individual Guilds, groups and families, etc. This is the only game that I have ever seen that using 'osay' is discouraged to the point of having an XP cost associated with it. Granted, it's minor, but it's still INTENDED as a discouraging mechanic, to prevent people from getting too involved with the OOC chatter. For me, OOC chatter is absolutely necessary to clarify things, to arranged RP as mentioned above... Some times, I might just be passing through a scene and don't really want to stop and roleplay walking through something, or I'll just be peeking in to see what the RP atmosphere is like before I decide to join in... Or, using those Guild based RP channels or Jail channel, or whatever, to arrange RP or just generally hangout.

Ultimately, with all of this said, I find TI personally to be unwelcoming to me for anything OTHER than small, private scenes with players that I know I can enjoy RPing with. It's also why I feel like I've been bugging certain players for RP a lot. Because I just don't feel comfortable sitting in like, the Queen's and waiting for a scene to spark up.

EDIT: Also, another thing that I think I may have forgotten to mention... Is pose order. This infuriates me immensely, and there is no swifter way to kill my immersion and my involvement in a scene than to not automatically default to a pose order when you arrive in a scene. I've had RP where it was just three people. A (me), B and C were all that were left after a large scene ended. A posed saying goodbye to those players leave, and then B posed, and then C. And then B, and then C, and then B, and then C, before A even had a chance to even attempt to be involved in the scene. Which really goes back to the on-going discussion mentioned above. In an other instance, I was in a scene with someone, and everything was fine, and then someone shows up and begins to pose after every single pose, rather than waiting and allowing people to write out their pose. A would pose, and then C, and then B would pose, and then C, and then C, and then A, and then C, etc etc.

[Dreams]

So over the past few weeks that I've been playing TI again, I've come to realize that as a whole, the game is particularly unwelcoming to me, and players like me for a number of reasons. I've mentioned that there are cultural differences that I've experienced here, that I haven't in -any- other game before.

In any other game, the mechanics, and the mechanical strings related to IC actions are typically taken as a support to your roleplay, and doesn't count as a pose in and of itself. In all of my experience as a player over the last nine years of roleplaying, this is the only game I've ever been on when people pose me into a scene, before I've actually posed my arrival, which honestly, I kind of feel is a bit disrespectful.

I don't like this, either, and I wish people would stop doing it. It's come up in OOC meetings before, it's come up in all sorts of places. I am one who pauses to see what's happening in the scene before posing in, and when people pose me in before I'm able to, it's irritating. But, irritating, not completely crippling - it's an irritation I can ignore, but prefer that I wouldn't have to put up with.

Secondly, this is the only game that so sharply encourages lower quality poses as described in this https://ti-legacy.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2243 post. Personally, this makes the game entirely unwelcoming for me. I'm a slower poser, as I take my time to write out and detail how my character is involved in the scene they are in, and how they are reacting to everthing. At one point, someone commented on this that longer poses is more for private scenes, and that seems... Wrong to me. Firstly, it's the sort of thing that will encourage me to ONLY do private scenes, with those players that I know I can RP with. Secondly, like I mentioned during staff discussion a couple of weeks back, this is the ONLY game I've been on that doesn't inherently default to a pose order, EVEN for larger scenes. This is an important courtesy for all of the players involved, as it allows each player a chance to interact, and to have their roleplay be impactful to the scene. Granted, for those larger scenes, typically I've seen 3pr adopted, which is a tactic to still follow a much looser pose order. Essentially, you just wait until three other players have made their pose, before you yourself pose. Even going to that typically players will OOCly discuss it before doing something like that unless it's a particularly large scene, like six or more players.

I think many of us disagree with this change, as that thread is still growing with people coming out and asking staff to reverse this decision.

Which brings me to my third point. This is also the only game I have ever scene that actively discourages OOC communication as described https://ti-legacy.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2299 here. In every other game, there are OOC channels related to individual Guilds, groups and families, etc. This is the only game that I have ever seen that using 'osay' is discouraged to the point of having an XP cost associated with it. Granted, it's minor, but it's still INTENDED as a discouraging mechanic, to prevent people from getting too involved with the OOC chatter. For me, OOC chatter is absolutely necessary to clarify things, to arranged RP as mentioned above... Some times, I might just be passing through a scene and don't really want to stop and roleplay walking through something, or I'll just be peeking in to see what the RP atmosphere is like before I decide to join in... Or, using those Guild based RP channels or Jail channel, or whatever, to arrange RP or just generally hangout.

I don't think any single person would complain if osay is being used for clarification of RP, which is it's intention. The complaints come with the random comments, banter, etc. Which, in the helpfile, it says specifically to avoid. People can't turn osay off.

The OOC channel is intended for the general banter. There is a channel that exists for this, and I fail to understand why it seems so many people are complaining about not using other channels for the OOC banter intended for the OOC channel. That's, literally, what it's there for.

The jail channel is a completely different discussion, and has been often used lately not to arrange RP, but for passive-aggressive behavior to guilt people for not RPing with them. This is OOC behavior that is not alright. Not a single person would complain there, either, if it was simply being used to arrange scenes, as it is intended. But when it's being used to nag, to give passive-aggressive hints, rather than having a healthy respect for one another - that is, honestly, a completely different topic, and it isn't people just getting yelled at for asking for RP.

The game removed tells over a year ago now. The atmosphere of the game is to allow people to immerse themselves in scenes, if they would like to. Constant (unnecessary) osay chatter and other things remove that immersiveness, and make it very hard for some people to focus on what's going on in game. Those who can handle the fun banter keep the OOC channel on - that's what it's there for. Yes, when tells were removed, it was controversial. Yes, when tells were removed, some people downright left the game.

Everyone is in the game to play a game. Not everyone is in the game to have OOC interactions/banter/etc. Some people prefer to keep everything, as much as possible, IC. The IC game is the commonality - not the OOC banter. OOC banter can be done many, many other places. The OOC channel, Discord, etc. And the people who are comfortable with it will participate in it there. But, it's no one's right to force people to participate in OOC banter, or even have to have it streaming on their screen.

[BlackSoul566]

I don't think any single person would complain if osay is being used for clarification of RP, which is it's intention. The complaints come with the random comments, banter, etc. Which, in the helpfile, it says specifically to avoid. People can't turn osay off.

The OOC channel is intended for the general banter. There is a channel that exists for this, and I fail to understand why it seems so many people are complaining about not using other channels for the OOC banter intended for the OOC channel. That's, literally, what it's there for.

The jail channel is a completely different discussion, and has been often used lately not to arrange RP, but for passive-aggressive behavior to guilt people for not RPing with them. This is OOC behavior that is not alright. Not a single person would complain there, either, if it was simply being used to arrange scenes, as it is intended. But when it's being used to nag, to give passive-aggressive hints, rather than having a healthy respect for one another - that is, honestly, a completely different topic, and it isn't people just getting yelled at for asking for RP.

The game removed tells over a year ago now. The atmosphere of the game is to allow people to immerse themselves in scenes, if they would like to. Constant (unnecessary) osay chatter and other things remove that immersiveness, and make it very hard for some people to focus on what's going on in game. Those who can handle the fun banter keep the OOC channel on - that's what it's there for. Yes, when tells were removed, it was controversial. Yes, when tells were removed, some people downright left the game.

Everyone is in the game to play a game. Not everyone is in the game to have OOC interactions/banter/etc. Some people prefer to keep everything, as much as possible, IC. The IC game is the commonality - not the OOC banter. OOC banter can be done many, many other places. The OOC channel, Discord, etc. And the people who are comfortable with it will participate in it there. But, it's no one's right to force people to participate in OOC banter, or even have to have it streaming on their screen.

In literally every other game I've played in, all it takes for these things to be achieved, is for a variety of these OOC channels to be available, to those who want to use them. So let me back this up a tiny bit and say that it doesn't take much to have a Merchants Channel, a Reeves Channel, a Knights Channel, etc, and have all of these OOC channels that you can simply turn on and off, based on what you're doing. For banter, for chatter, for arranging scenes. For all of that. It's a way to help the players feel included in their groups. In one game, I have three or four different OOC channels, that I typically turn off as soon as I'm going into a scene. It's that simple, honestly. OOC chatter actively AT a scene, I can kind of get behind that mindset, but it still seems odd to have an XP cost associated with 'osay'. Again, this is literally the only mu game I've -ever- played on that has that. In nine years.

[Puciek]

I don't think any single person would complain if osay is being used for clarification of RP, which is it's intention. The complaints come with the random comments, banter, etc. Which, in the helpfile, it says specifically to avoid. People can't turn osay off.

The OOC channel is intended for the general banter. There is a channel that exists for this, and I fail to understand why it seems so many people are complaining about not using other channels for the OOC banter intended for the OOC channel. That's, literally, what it's there for.

The jail channel is a completely different discussion, and has been often used lately not to arrange RP, but for passive-aggressive behavior to guilt people for not RPing with them. This is OOC behavior that is not alright. Not a single person would complain there, either, if it was simply being used to arrange scenes, as it is intended. But when it's being used to nag, to give passive-aggressive hints, rather than having a healthy respect for one another - that is, honestly, a completely different topic, and it isn't people just getting yelled at for asking for RP.

The game removed tells over a year ago now. The atmosphere of the game is to allow people to immerse themselves in scenes, if they would like to. Constant (unnecessary) osay chatter and other things remove that immersiveness, and make it very hard for some people to focus on what's going on in game. Those who can handle the fun banter keep the OOC channel on - that's what it's there for. Yes, when tells were removed, it was controversial. Yes, when tells were removed, some people downright left the game.

Everyone is in the game to play a game. Not everyone is in the game to have OOC interactions/banter/etc. Some people prefer to keep everything, as much as possible, IC. The IC game is the commonality - not the OOC banter. OOC banter can be done many, many other places. The OOC channel, Discord, etc. And the people who are comfortable with it will participate in it there. But, it's no one's right to force people to participate in OOC banter, or even have to have it streaming on their screen.

In literally every other game I've played in, all it takes for these things to be achieved, is for a variety of these OOC channels to be available, to those who want to use them. So let me back this up a tiny bit and say that it doesn't take much to have a Merchants Channel, a Reeves Channel, a Knights Channel, etc, and have all of these OOC channels that you can simply turn on and off, based on what you're doing. For banter, for chatter, for arranging scenes. For all of that. It's a way to help the players feel included in their groups. In one game, I have three or four different OOC channels, that I typically turn off as soon as I'm going into a scene. It's that simple, honestly. OOC chatter actively AT a scene, I can kind of get behind that mindset, but it still seems odd to have an XP cost associated with 'osay'. Again, this is literally the only mu game I've -ever- played on that has that. In nine years.

There are couple very popular MU games that have this, like sindome which doesn't even come with an osay equivalent.

Guild channels used to be a thing, they were toggleable, and they were disabled together with tells as far as I understand. If I can be blunt about my understanding for the "why" it's simple - overall they were detrimental to the game and people often enough used them to do things OOCly that couldn't been done ICly - like coordinating efforts of guildmates. And on similar token not partaking in them left you as "outsider" in your own guild, and some people just do not want OOC in their IC, including OOC banter when not actively in RP right now, and they shouldn't feel left out because of it.

[phoenixdoll]

I suppose my experience has been different with TI, because I do for the most part feel that this community has been very welcoming to me, with prompt replies to all my queries in visnet.

But yeah, culturally I think TI just isn't very much about the banter. I don't think that's unfriendly, its just different.

[galaxgal]

There are a lot of social conventions inherited from RPI MUDs, where code actions are often considered literal in-character actions and OOC banter is limited to specific places. It's probably cold comfort, but for context, the OOC communication policy here is actually much more lenient by that standard.

I think whether the atmosphere seems warm or cold here is going to depend a lot on which area of the MU* realm you're from. I imagine someone coming from a collaborative story-writing atmosphere like I presume MUSHes to present as is going to find it colder and more hostile and someone coming from an RPI MUD filled with obfuscated mechanics, murderdeath, and settings where being antisocial is normal are going to find it warmer and more welcoming.

Speed... I have my own opinions but I'm not going to drag that debate out of its topic. I think overall this boils down to "should TI be more like a MUD or more like a MUSH socially" though.

[Puciek]

I suppose my experience has been different with TI, because I do for the most part feel that this community has been very welcoming to me, with prompt replies to all my queries in visnet.

But yeah, culturally I think TI just isn't very much about the banter. I don't think that's unfriendly, its just different.

There is quite a lot of OOC tensions right now, and seems that has been going on for quite a few months, and gets a bit further agitated by less-than-popular changes. But I am also sure that all this is coming from a good place of wanting what's best of the game, and why people are so passionate about defending what they see to be the best way to do it. But I am also glad to hear and see that this is not sieving into visnet, as that's where everyone always comes together to help everyone who needs it!

But when people are passionate and disagree, sometimes sparks fly. And as galaxgal said, there is a bit of world colliding here too.

[Starstarfish]

In my experience a lot of MU* that have more "set pose" and other conventions like that tend to use a very different codebase and have very different expectations. Like the idea of posting all logs to a wiki so that RP is manually calculated by staff. And that scenes are largely set up OOC rather than there being an active grid to discover people randomly on.

We also don't follow a roster system, for example.

The pose length/RPXP discussion has it's own thread. So I'll let that play out there.

We have an OOC channel. Something most RPI MUDs do not have so TI is not indeed unique in that, even if it is something perhaps not common in certain other game types. We had channels for every Guild at one point. While it could lead to some pretty amusing moments, it came with the expectation of participation or being seen as "anti social."

[Lei]

I know this post is old, but I've been absent. Psh. Just noting that I will always, always, always vote for the return of tells and guild chans.