Miscarriage Spell

[Temi]

We've had some talk about the possibility of a miscarriage spell to make someone lose a pregnancy. We knows it's a touchy issue, so what do people think? Do you find it an appropriately unsettling thought (mages should be unsettling!) or would it really bother you on an OOC level if there was the possibility of it happening?

[Kinaed]

I edited this poll to make it so people can change their votes and to put a 7 day limit on it - I don't THINK anyone's vote was lost, but please check your vote to ensure it wasn't. Apologies!

[Geras]

Bah I misread the question... please consider one less for no and more for yes.

I think this shouldn't be in the game for the same reasons that rape isn't allowed. This sort of horror may hit far too close to home for some people, and if it makes one person feel absolutely aweful that's one too many.

[Geras]

Ok fixed my vote... but I'd advise everyone to read the question carefully lol.

[Julea]

There are already IC herbs that do so apparently? So I see it as little different from that. There are always going to be aspects of the game that are sensitive for some people, whether that be violence, or whatever. It is just a matter of obtaining consent and making sure all parties are happy etc.

ie, being adults about it all.

[Kinaed]

I'm not sure how we would gain consent for this sort of thing. If we say 'yes with consent' do we turn into a game where certain things do require consent? How do we ask for it, and what things?

I think miscarriage is less prevalent than rape, but I can see the acute trauma issue, especially for a forced/non-consentual miscarriage. In honesty, the reason rape is still illegal on TI to this day was because I knew someone who had that issue when it was brought up (the acute trauma reaction) and, caring about her, I didn't want to subject her to that - or anyone else if they'd react like her. Otherwise, I'd have had no problem with rape being allowed either. These are topics where I feel blind - I've never been raped or lost a baby (thank god), so I'm just not sure I'm qualified to make decisions in this space. My empathy factor is exceedingly low, so I can't get a grip on what the effects might be like to the pbase if a trauma case were to arise.

In general, I believe in risk being evaluated by the likelihood that it will happen versus the impact if it did happen. Are there any players right now who feel they would be traumatized if their character was ICly forced to miscarry? (If this is too private to ask, I apologize - as I said, low empathy) If the answer is no, however, I think we may be jumping at shadows. Also, these things happen in real life, and on a game where torture is most definitely in-theme, I'm not certain where I see this line being. Of course, as I said, I wasn't sure about the rape one either until I dealt with the acute trauma in my friend.

This said, I actually do know someone who suffered miscarriages, so I'll ask her her opinion and hope she doesn't smack me. *ponder*

[Clockwork]

It is just a matter of obtaining consent and making sure all parties are happy etc.

ie, being adults about it all.

The issue is twofold:
1.) The game is, ultimately, non-consensual. (Help Policy Non-consensual). This means that people can do what they want to others, so long as they have IC reasons for doing them. While IC Actions = IC Consequences, when we run against issues like this, I think that an issue as polarizing as being able to use abortion as a weapon is extremely dangerous to bring into the non-consensual environment.

2.) As with most magic-related RP, there is generally very little opportunity to discuss the plan with the victim OOC. Either the mage may fear, rightfully so, that the victim may use foreknowledge to prevent the attempt, or the mage would never dare speak to the victim OOC for fear of blowing their cover. The result is that even if the player of the mage is well-meaning, looking for good story, the victim has no way to know that the aggressor isn't being a vindictive butthead. I can see very little opportunity for this *not* to lead to anger and friction within the pbase, IC and OOC.

My vote on this is a firm and resounding NO (which, as Geras pointed out, means that I'm actually voting YES, because the question is phrased in the negative). I don't think that anything good can come of it. If a player wants to get rid of a pregnancy, there is RPA. Using such a thing as a weapon far surpasses unsettling, into the same realm as rape RP.

[Eris]

Yes. I absolutely think this is a very bad idea. I think it should not go through for the same reason that rape RP is not allowed: you never know what a player's RL experiences are, and it could lead to a considerable amount of trauma for the people involved.

Beyond that, is it really necessary to have a spell that produces miscarriage? I'm sorry, it just doesn't sit well with me at all.

[Kinaed]

I think the people who suggested the spell did so for twofold reasons: 1) the possibility that it would be a useful tool for their characters as opposed to a weapon (TI's version of pro choice, I suppose) and 2) if used as a weapon, would prove the evilness/horror of mages in a scary way that just doesn't exist on TI at the moment.

I'm getting from the language used that those in the negative are -far- in the negative, whereas those in the positive seem to be kinda 'yeah, whatever, it'd be cool.' kinda language. Eg, there's a different level of vehemence. *still pondering*

[Bennie]

Overall, I come out against this addition. I think that it begins to dabble in a more contentious area that may be emotionally charged in a powerful way for some players...

I see the redeeming quality in it shows one of the darker powers of mages. But for me, its not quite enough to justify an addition.