ti-legacy.com

I requested the log of Julea's PK as it was clear the player was dissatisfied. At the time of the event and subsequent inquiries, this log wasn't available. The staff as a whole reviewed it as of this morning, however, and decided that it would be worthwhile to discuss some items that jump out at us with the pbase.

Firstly, we are hyper aware that this log is Julea's point of view alone. In reading it, there were several instances where we had to think "Did that player -really- do what it looks like they did? What would it have looked like from their point of view?" Clearly, there are places where we might not have gotten that right. Generally, we are of the opinion that no one involved OOCly had it in for Julea.

Overall, the major pain of this log is that, to quote a portion of candid staff discussion:

[Kinaed]: There is a lot to be said for how things happen.
[Kinaed]: But as I said, stepping away from Julea - reading that log, if it were me, I would quit.
[Kinaed]: And I am not someone who never lost a char before.
[Takta]: Why would you quit over it?
[Kinaed]: Because I was doing my best, trying to be nice and fair even though I was severely hampered emotionally and mentally, and my needs weren't respected by the code or my fellow players.
[Temi]: I wouldn't quit over it now, but as my first and only character? Yeah, it was a bad experience. I might.
[Kinaed]: When you do your best and get no love in return on any level, it's not the place for you.
[Takta]: Yeah, I guess there's maybe a day or time when I would have quit over something like that.

So that's why we're writing this post - to set some standards for what we want to see in future PKs for the sake of retaining players so we all continue to have people to role-play with.

WHAT POINTS STOOD OUT TO STAFF FROM THE RP LOG?
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The Point
Up front, there were no Desc Notes from any of the parties who pushed the RP towards Julea's death (though only the most direct parties were held accountable in this case).

What should have happened?
Desc notes, obviously. We won't harp on this item because it has already been addressed and is included here only for completion.
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The Point
Julea was in disguise, but it wasn't noted due to the remember code, and it seems she OOCly disengaged (due to stress?) and didn't inform anyone to allow contests or to work out a realistic scenario.

What should have happened?
Julea should have oocly said "btw, if you haven't noticed it, I'm actually in disguise - fully changed intro, desc and gear. I'd like to contest whether or not I'm recognized." And the other players present, should have negotiated what determining that might look like until an agreement was reached, then it was enacted by the players present. Players who needed to correct their previous emotes should have.
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The Point
Players outside of the combat code moved at a quicker pace than players inside it, and did not slow down their approach to accommodate the players inside. This led to very important RP events, like a town crier being sent to call everyone to assist in the arrest, without any ability for the PK victm to RP or respond.

What should have happened?
Players noting that Julea wasn't emoting or responding to anything should have slowed down and asked her to participate. Julea should have said "this is a very tense situation for me, can we please enforce turn taking? There's like nine people in the room after me." The town crier shouldn't have been sent until it was clear everyone was in and engaged. Code wise, quite possibly, everyone should have been engaged in combat upon entering a scene with combat in it, to force round or turn taking. The staff are considering adding a command like 'Graphic' to request players take turns during a tense scene or something akin to that. We recognize this issue is in large part due to code, but we also feel it's encouraged by player mindset about PK on TI based on the culture around PK that we'd like to see shift more towards the intent of the help files.

This pk showed, in my mind, a simply stunning lack of communication between parties, which leads to a lack of trust and respect, which makes this feel like something being done to someone (on the OOC level) rather than a worthwhile RP experience. The PK rules are designed to ensure this doesn't happen, which is why this is so concerning.
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The Point
Players either weren't familiar with the combat code or the stress of the situation caused them to fumble with it, increasing Julea's frustration before the scene even started.

What should have happened?
Benedictus should have taken his combat turn in a timely manner. Failing to take his combat turn locked Julea up completely. Some practice with fleeing and combat would have helped. Familiarity with how Southside mobs worked (you need a disguise object or a Thief writ to pass, grouping alone doesn't work) and the like would have reduced frustration.

As staff, we may need to be doing more here to ensure that the system is disseminated and people are practiced, including increasing opportunities for practice in play. Players who might have to flee or fight really need to take some time getting to know the system because it might mean life or death for them someday. We may also need to think about if anything more needs to be done if someone is in RP combat and simply doesn't act on their turn due to the effect it has on others.
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The Point
Julea, most likely due to OOC stress, dropped out of the RP, cutting off the other player's opportunity to fulfill their PK requirements (which according to our policy states that players are no longer required to fulfill the requirements they cannot do... but it's clear that the rest of the PK Policy tenants were already violated before then.)

What should have happened?

To me, this portion of what happened seems more like the effect of the first bits rather than a cause. Ideally, Julea would have been calm enough to stick it through and explain to the staff and the other players what was going on and demand PK policy be obeyed, but clearly by the time she's dropping out, she's in no state to do so.
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WHAT DO THE STAFF REQUIRE IN PKs GOING FORWARD?

Basically, we require players follow the three major tenants of the PK Policy:

- Firstly, players must have Desc Notes least 24 (and 4 for a "legal" execution) hours before the event to let people OOCly calm down. It ensures what starts out as a simple arrest doesn't end up in a death out of OOC frustration or momentum. In an execution situation, it gives the PK victim a small opportunity to respond to their case with whatever needs to be said.

- Secondly, the player in question must be given the opportunity, as much as physically and reasonably possible, to be a part of the scene and RP their death. This means that events should not be allowed or pushed by a PKer to take off beyond them. If they're not emoting, the PKer should check to see why and ensure RP Avoidance isn't happening. If it is, then let the staff know it's happening and get their approval before just carrying on. If it's not avoidance, slow down and give the PK-ee an opportunity to respond at a reasonable pace. If necessary, agree to take turns.

- Thirdly, the player must know why they're in trouble, and it must be conveyed ICly. Sometimes we think it's obvious that a person ought to know why their butt is in the frying pan, but the fact is they may not see it the same way. In Julea's situation, she had no idea what she did that might have been treasonous (and detected) and she thought the stuff that got out about her and the church had been resolved. It's absolutely fine if the PK victim's perspective is in disagreement to the PKer's, but these messages need to be conveyed to the person during the RP.

These tenets of PK are not new. They're the old standards - but they've never been properly or strongly enforced. Frankly, I intend to enforce them because that's what it takes to make a PK in an RP game feel like a story for the victim instead of abuse. Please remember - RP is a cooperative exercise, even when players are in conflict.

OVERALL
We feel these problems are an issue with TI play culture at this time more so than intent of players to fail to meet PK requirements. In part, we know this is due to our 'coding' background and simply how things grew to be over time without anyone reviewing PK logs or feeding back expectations to the pbase. Staff simply haven't seen these things in the past because none of the staffers are actually heavy PKers (I don't think any of us have killed anyone in since TI:Legacy's inception to see what's going on in this space).

The bottom line is, however, staff want this culture to change. This post is a head's up - we intend to hold PKs to PK POLICY standards. In the future, PKs that do not hold up to muster will be nulled or other IC methods brought in to rectify the situation, such as alternative endings and the like. We don't want to startle people with this, but we equally don't want to see PKs driving away players, not because they're not reasonable to have happen, but because the execution fails to convey respect or good story.

:(

Agree with all the points above. I wish there was a way to make things right for Julea though - great player, great char.

Everyone really just to be more considerate of each other, not just their IC goals. Not everyone who plays TI is a season RPer who can distance themselves from their character's feelings, and a PK can feel like a personal attakc. It rarely is, but if we all just remember to be considerate and kind, these kind of things won't be a problem.

Have the patience to wait for everyone else to have a pose before you do. Take turns, check that people are OOC ok, and if not, take a break. Pause the scene until everyone's had a breather.

At the end of the day, TI is a game and meant to be fun. It's each persons responsibility to make it fun for each other :D

*Cheers for Knights and Bards! Bring on Guild Wars!!!!*

Squidy

Well regardless of everyone's "seasoning" on the MUD, I think it's important to keep in mind that this game isn't about winning or losing, it's about everyone having fun.

It's also about fairness - it can just be hard to keep up with things when you're the centre of multiple other characters' attention. It's easy to get overwhelmed.

That being said, I think these changes will address a lot of things... I hope...

With regards to 'making it right' for Julea, the staff discussed the issue at length.

We feel that Julea is definitely owed compensation, and waived the XP cost of death as well as offered her a noble character for her next should she return.

We considered nulling the RP or allowing her to continue living through a story twist, but ultimately we felt that there were multiple reasons not to. The first is that we are a permanent death game, and it's not our culture to null deaths in general. It's not our preferred method of handling PK issues. We want death to be regarded as final, not set a precedent that implies nulls are a standard of handling bad PKs as 'bad' is subjective when it comes to the quality of RP. (This being said, after pointing out to everyone on these forums what we think a good PK takes - nulls are in the future if PKs don't meet the 3-pronged PK Policy acid test).

Also, I think there was a sense that Julea's death was extremely likely and reasonable if the execution had been handled according to the rules. A null, at least, would just put her right back into the situation, and everyone else also, with the pressure, guilt, and general negative feelings of an unwanted 'do over'. In short, we didn't believe it would spare Julea, or anyone else, anything.

The last reason we decided not to null is, frankly, that Julea enacted RP Avoidance. That in itself is against policy. We know she wasn't in a good state and had reasons for it, but it changes her from being simply a victim to being culpable. Despite our post picking out what could have gone better, we can hardly vilify the players who pkilled Julea. The log doesn't actually directly show evidence of intent to immediately kill her until after she dropped out - at which time a lot of the PK Policy to ensure fairness is waived because it cannot be completed without her presence. In fact, her dropping out is quite likely what forced the hands of the players involved who probably felt "well, if not now, never, because she's not likely to log in again."

Really, what should have happened was a strong, specific demand that players abide by the PK policy (by any player in the scene) and, if that demand wasn't being met, a request for staff to step in. If people couldn't agree, a request for staff to even arbitrate the scene in these situations may be reasonable.

How about the Pbase stop being such Zealots when it comes to people playing criminals. That might help some. You want baddies, the game needs baddies. All that ever happens is you get a hunch, or you OOCly find out and send out a legion to take out one person. I am for one a bit sick of it, really. Pretty well known i play baddies about 90% of the time, and my last death I still think was just rather stupid and poorly played out.

Im taking a lengthy break, since tea partys and stuff seem to appeal more to people. Here is a tip. You want people to play criminals? Then give them slack. Meaning, you should only be killing them if your 100% sure IC they are in fact a criminal. Not killing them because you think or have a hunch IC, and because you know OOC. Might help a little. Enjoy your tea parties. Seeing another player suffering something that may not be technically similar to my death, but just as disturbing as an RPer, just confirms my thoughts.

Yah Kinky, wasn't criticizing your decision, or anyone's RP for that matter. Fully understand why there's only so much that can be done.

On Enix's point, I find it amusing that there's still a quitquote from one of my chars getting pked by a Thief, lamenting that "Unfortunately being a Thief isn't illegal." Or something like that. Basically my char (Medrus) has outed someone as a thief, but the Reeves did nothing because technically they hadn't done anything illegal. Funny how times change.

As a staff member who takes PK quite seriously (as seen by recent policy changes and the like), I have to admit to a certain gut rebellion that is taking place atm.

The very first room all players log into says "non-consent, perma-death". People who aren't okay with other people having that control of their fate should take heed.

The guts of TI and the way it is set up is lawful folk get the fun guessing game of who is bad. The bad guys get the adrenaline thrill of outsmarting the lawfuk folk for as long as they can. It is bound to end - Remi, for example, lasted a long time.

On TI, we throw a wake, not a pity party.

Neither Julea's nor Remi's deaths were OOCly driven. Players had cause, and both Remi and Julea seperately gave them cause. Cause isn't about OOC truth or proving some framework was met. It's about IC politics and knowing your limits. I've only rarely seen arrests or PKs that are frivilous, though I admit some despair that people don't seem content with alternatives and small indescretions can be met with maximum, possibly unrealistic, force. Usually there's something or a bunch of somethings that a PK victim doesn't know too. Whether the victim can come to accept that isn't something anyone can enforce on them. (I'm sorry, Enix, but I genuinely do not believe Remi's death was amongst the aforementioned frivilous PKs).

I was appalled to see Julea's log, but I'm almost equally appalled about the long, drawn out drama surrounding it. First day of login, what did she see? "Non-consensual, perm-death".

"Good" people die too on this game. And as for tea parties? Precious little of that going around, but it sounds to me like that's what people who don't like non-consensual, perm death would prefer.

/rant

I get its perma death, no need to remind me. But my statement stands. And if you dont think Remi's death was a result of some crap, I would be happy to discuss with you why i felt it was crap. Which would likely go to another post on the forum which you created. As I stated before. Zealot's dont make the game fun, enough said.

I think the key element here is the frustration of not always knowing exactly what your character is being punished for, or why. I, too, was (and admittedly still a tiny bit am) frustrated with Leto's capture and execution, but I have to take it with a grain of salt because I have to trust that what I don't know is both reasonable and realistic. And I certainly can not expect everyone to just tip their hands to me.