ti-legacy.com

I was asked about providing feedback on the game from a new player perspective. I reported a generally positive experience, but had fairly little to offer at the time when asked the, "What could we do better?" question. This post is a follow-up to that conversation, now that I've had some time to mull the game over and provide a more thorough response.

To clarify, this is the first time I've played a MUD. This is also not my proverbial first rodeo. The following opinions are undoubtedly colored by my experiences with tabletop gaming, and are not necessarily directly applicable to a MUD experience.

Thoughts on character creation

I made some mistakes at character creation. There were things I didn't know that caused me to make decisions that I came to regret. Fortunately, the staff was very accomodating in this regard. I was able to fix my mistakes with an absolute minimum amount of hassle. Given the way character creation is set up, the best solution might actually be to send new players into the world as quick as possible and get them interacting with people, who then say, "By the way, your name is still blue. You can have the staff send you back to character creation to adjust your decisions. Now that you know a little bit more about the game, you should do it."

One of the issues I ran into, personally, was that my wisdom was too low for a skill I later found out I really should have taken. That, I had to actually have changed by a staff member. I couldn't be returned to the newbie rooms to fix. This is a bigger issue, because the aforementioned resolution of, "Just send them out to get blooded, and reel them back into character generation once they've got some more information," doesn't allow them to adjust attributes. That requires an additional staff intervention step.

All of the available information I would need to create my character is available through the help files. I could have known what my attributes needed to be before I finished that part of the character creation process. However, at that point, a new player can not be reasonably expected to find that information. A new player doesn't yet know they need to ask that question, and even if they did, they wouldn't know where to look. You don't find out that you can type "abilities" to start looking at the list until after you've assigned your attributes. A new player should be prompted to check abilities for attribute minimums while they're assigning their attributes.

It's possible I may have been given such a prompt and just missed it. However, that's still an issue, as I definitely remember the very loud, "Warning! Being a mage can get you killed!" prompt. There should be an equally loud notification to start checking abilities for trait minimums, because attributes require additional work to correct.

For the rest of this post, I'm going to have to wander off onto game design.

Thoughts on nobility

Having actual game rules for social conventions is a very sticky subject that can rub a lot of prospective players the wrong way, especially since they don't have an attachment to any of the other players. The social conventions are neat and flavorful, and they add to immersion, but they also suck for anyone who's not a beneficiary of said rules. When I read the rules for interacting with nobles, I very seriously considered pulling the plug. At that point, I only continued with character creation because I had a friend waiting for me to join.

According to the game rules, because we have to ask their permission to leave the room, that is reasonably taken to mean that if a noble should show up, we need their permission to log out of the MUD. (I exaggerate slightly, as I believe the exact wording is that it is considered rude, not that you absolutely are not allowed to leave. Work with me here, there's a point even if it takes a while to get there.) Furthermore, it is not enough to simply say, "By your leave, Your Majesty," and then type quit. According to the rules, you would then have to then sit there and wait for them to permit you to log out and resume your regular scheduled life. That sort of thing can and does leave a sour taste in players' mouths, even though the players of the nobility could be wonderful individuals to play with.

Let's take a step back from the extreme case of needing a noble's permission to log out for the night, because that's a purely literal interpretation of the game rules no player actually goes by. "Oh, you're going to bed? Sleep well. It was nice seeing you today," is how that exchange actually works out on the grid. I only took it that far because a new player who is reading the rules hasn't met any of the other players, yet. New players are, by their nature, inclined to take those social conventions and such as actual game rules that they must abide by.

Now, I don't want this to be interpreted as me hurling vitriol about the oppressive nobility, and how much it sucks to not be a noble. There is definitely an element of suckiness inherent in dealing with the nobility, but it is not an insurmountable obstacle. Consider: Any complaint I may have about the rules regarding nobles are very easy for me to solve by simply not interacting with those characters. Further consider that those noble titles are supposed to be rewards. How much would it suck if that reward meant other players now want to keep their distance?

Thoughts on guilds

During the initial sales pitch, I was told the thieve's guild is currently population: 0, and staff are looking to get it reformed. After playing a bit and doing some reading, I've come to the realization that's unlikely to change. To explain why, I first have to start with the other guilds and organizations.

Let's start with the Troubadours. They have a fairly lengthy help entry explaining who they are. The help file also says that they are often afforded much of the respect and courtesy typically shown to nobles. Considering that I've raised the notion that it kind of sucks to deal with nobles when you aren't one, this is a pretty nice perk. Right off the bat, without leaving the Troubadours help file, there's a reason why I want to pursue that organization. If I'm making a character where the concept has anything at all to do with music, storytelling, or the bardly arts, there's no further need to sell me on the Troubadours. That doesn't even scratch the surface.

Rumors helpfile wrote:To listen to one, find a public area and simply type rumor. Rumor add <rumor> from anywhere in game allows you to add your own, but they won't be available to everyone else until Staff or a Troubadour validates it. Rumor show will list all rumors you have submitted and their status.

Troubadours have elite access to the rumor mill, including the ability to validate and quash rumors that have not already surfaced amongst the gossips. Troubadours above the rank of apprentice may 'rumor all', 'rumor validate # <yes|no> <silver>', and are requested to abide by the following general guidelines for silver rewards:

This is huge. In an intrigue-based game, the ability validate or squelch a rumor is one of the strongest abilities for a characters to have. First off, this means they get to read rumors that everyone else never gets a chance to see, because they see it first and then squelch it. Second, in order to do that, they have to be able to browse every rumor and pending rumor without having to pay money to see them. Third, they are not subject to the whims of whatever random generator is used to determine what rumors ordinary characters receive. These things present a very juicy red apple to a player making a character, as if to say, "Dine on my succulent and delectable flesh."

Fourth, because of the interaction with the magic system, the Troubadour's also possess the ability to eliminate other characters - an ability more commonly associated with a different organization. From a purely mechanical perspective, it's basically two guilds rolled into one, and incidentally, makes the head of the Troubadours arguably more powerful and influential than the monarchy. The guildleader has direct control of what information people receive, including the monarchy, to smear foes or uplift allies as they choose, and if need be he or she can orchestrate a witch burning. If you cross the Troubadours, you can be rubbed out.

There is no question that if I'm making a musician, performer, courtier, or other similar character, I want in. It's not a decision to be weighed. There's no looking at the other guilds to see if they might be a better fit.

Now let's take a look at the Reeves, who I understand are law enforcement. I understand the Knights are a separate organization. I might be inclined to pick one, or I might want to pick the other. Each has their pros and cons. As a Reeve, people might watch what they say around me, but generally speaking they're going to trust me. If I'm a Knight, I've got a reputation for protecting the public from mages. There are some minor social benefits. There are some potential social drawbacks as well, but they're relatively minor and also highly situational. I don't need to go outside the help file on those guilds to see why I might want to pursue them. They may have some other perks on par with the Troubadours' power to influence rumors. I haven't looked, but I don't really need to in order to make the decision that I want to be a Reeve or a Knight.

If I look at the Brotherhood, it's sold as a wretched hive of scum and villainy. That can be a really cool character concept, but there's one line that completely hijacks all of that.

Thieves helpfile wrote:Warning: Membership with the Brotherhood is illegal.

The last time I saw a red warning like that, it was when I was asked if I wanted to be a mage. Now my guard is up. Illegal? What are the consequences? Because mages die. On the in-game board, there's a note specifying that Brotherhood members, and people who consort with them, are sentenced to hard labor.

Problem: How does that get resolved? Is the character suspended for a certain length of game time (which translates to real time, and potentially a lengthy block of it) while they serve their sentence? If so, what do I do in the meantime? There must be some consequence, otherwise there's no point in membership being illegal. Then I remember it's a red-label warning. That means it's probably a penalty that makes my character unplayable. In essence, the penalty is death. Being sentenced to hard labor must mean my character gets enslaved to work in the mines, and I make a new one.

Now, as a mage, I get to have a grand time hamming it up when the Inquisition comes for me. I can roleplay out my death as I burn, or if I'm feeling extra spicy, I can go out with a bang and take down as many people as I can. As a member of the Brotherhood, I literally go out like a whipped dog. As bad ends go, the fate that is intimated for exposed Brotherhood members is about the worst of it. My character gets to suffer at the end of a lash for however many years he or she continues to live.

For a mage, it's immediately obvious what I get for accepting that risk of death. There's nothing in the Brotherhood help file to indicate what I get to offset the risk of slave labor. (By the way, compare that help file to the Troubadours. Just look at them side by side.) If I want to play a night watchman, I don't have to join the Reeves, but I don't risk anything by joining, and it's character appropriate. If I want to play a criminal, I take a huge risk by joining the Brotherhood. It's a risk that's unnecessary, because I can still be a sneaky git on my own. At least that way, I only take the risk when I actually commit a robbery.

Not only is there nothing to indicate what offsets the possibility of effective character death, I don't even get to see their guild skills on the abilities list without having a rank in them first. I have to guess what the names of those skills are, pulling the name out of thin air, before I can look it up to see what it does or how it works. Once I do that, however, there's no need to join the Brotherhood! I can train the skills on my own.

Furthermore, the help file states that nobody retires from the Brotherhood alive. So in order to find out why I would even want to be in the Brotherhood in the first place, I have to join. Then, if I find out it's not worth the risk of a rumor leaking that I'm a member and winding up in chains, I can't even quit.

The crime lord relies heavily on information received through rumors, which the Troubadours have control of. The crime lord also relies on being able to spin the rumor mill to deflect suspicion, frame people who know too much, and otherwise keep themselves looking clean. Again, the Troubadours have control of that. Anyone actually interested in playing the head of the Brotherhood would be better off joining the Troubadours.

Now, the lack of information about the Brotherhood's actual capabilities is potentially a big deal. Maybe they've got the same control over rumors. Maybe they get to find out the identity of the people spreading rumors. Maybe they can make people disappear. If nobody else knew they could do that stuff, that would be worth the risk of "death" just like magic is, because the best part about having "something special" for the scheming nobles and gentry is when nobody knows it was you.

Unfortunately, if nobody knows, nobody is going to take the risk.

Thanks for taking the time to write all that up. A fresh perspective on game mechanics is really invaluable.

Corolinth wrote: Thoughts on character creation

This is good feedback. I also did things I didn't like during character creation, some of which I'm only discovering now. That said, as you point out, they do a very good job of helping out the newbies here.

Thoughts on nobility

I'm torn on this.
The existing rules are very flavorful, and probably very accurate. Meeting a noble in such a setting would be difficult for the commoners, and yes, I like that.

It's also a pain in the arse. (1) Most non-nobles in this game interact a LOT with nobles, a lot more than commoners ever would have. This is unavoidable due to the small player base, and a relatively large number of nobles. (2) You can't be a noble. There's good reason for this. Everyone and their dog would make a noble if they could. It would make nobility meaningless. However, it can leave a sour taste in one's mouth when you're stuck being gentry or freeman and kow-towing and bootlicking constantly.

Those complaints notwithstanding, i think the current nobility rules are pretty good at establishing setting and atmosphere. The only one I'd do away with, given a choice, is the request to leave their presence. A quick "By your leave," should be enough, without waiting. Despite the stupidly high amount of playtime some of us put in, it's not unlimited, and waiting around for your turn to come up when a less than speedy typist has requested {TURNS}, as little more than a bystander in a boring conversation when you'd rather be elsewhere is painful.

Thoughts on guilds

I haven't looked into that at all. The only guild I've really looked at is the Troubadours.

Hmm, I appreciate the feedback as well.

We'll make some changes to address some of the more pertinent issues raised. Thank you!

Oh, just a note- you can be put back into chargen and reroll your stats at any time. The reasoning for not doing so is that it would reroll your eq if you're wearing it, so it's usually just simpler to manually adjust upon request than to make you rewrite/re-enter everything.

In the short term response, I've:

- Added a note that so long as a player is Cyan in-game, they can contact a staff member to be placed back into chargen to tweak their character.
- Filled out and altered the Brotherhood help file a touch.

Generally, I am considering that you may be correct about the noble permission to leave issue - less so because of it being a problem ICly and more because it's an irritant to gameplay on the OOC level, especially when one has to or desires to leave the scene for whatever reason. I'm still thinking on that point, however.

As I indicated earlier, there is a possibility that the current character generation process may be the optimal model. However, some of the staff's time could be saved by having a notification about checking skills before distributing one's attribute points. The information is already there. It's very well documented, it's just that a brand new player deciding on their strength and dexterity doesn't yet know that they want to look at the skills list to see what they want, so that they can assign their stats appropriately.

As far as nobles go, a lot of that depends on what it is you want to do. There are players out there who enjoy that sort of strictly enforced social conventions to keep people in character, and there are others who are just interested in re-enacting a somewhat historically accurate portrayal of how social interactions were like in whatever time period they're gaming in. Some players just want that experience in their games. Not every game or gaming group is going to be a good match for every player.

Now, I personally think it needs some work for several reasons.

1) As has been pointed out, it's a serious nuisance to the non-noble, or lesser noble players who have other things they'd rather be doing, but can't leave until somebody gets around to granting them permission.

2) Nobody has brought this up yet, but it negatively impacts players who aren't involved in a scene with a noble. if I come online looking to do something with a few of my friends and one of them happens to be stuck in a scene with a noble, now I can't get involved in what I wanted to do.

3) It hurts the play experience for the nobles, because anyone who starts getting impacted by the out-of-character ramifications of dealing with nobles starts avoiding them.

Simply being able to leave their presence without waiting to be excused would work wonders, even if you had to ask first. You might also consider offering bonus experience to gentry and freemen while interacting with the nobility. It would make a lot of the kow-towing and bootlicking, as Talya put it, significantly more palatable.

Interactions with the nobles aren't designed to be everyone's cup of tea, but there's certainly a niche for it. I don't think everyone avoiding the nobility has become a problem as it has existed.

There is some disconnect in the asking leave, though. Not in making people ask leave or get permission, but in the fact that the noble isn't always responsive, which is generally entirely OOC of them being slow typing or non-responsive, etc. In practice, I've seen people ask leave, state OOCly that they assume it comes and they have to go, and then head off without waiting for someone unresponsive. And I've never seen a responsive noble fail to give their leave unless it was for some reason, like adding on one more question. I think I've also heard it clarified before that the expectation is only if you're interacting with the noble. If you both happen to be in the square, carrying on your separate conversations, neither involved with the other, that it's not really expected to ask leave. And if you're talking to someone, it's really sort of rude to dart off without letting them say goodbye, anyway! (Urgent OOC stuff not included, everyone is understanding when that's osayed) Does better describing something like this help the concerns?

Generally, I find the nobles to be much softer and more lenient than the theme suggests! Of course they also like to ignore the thematic responsibilities of behavior on their own part as well.

In practice, I've seen people ask leave, state OOCly that they assume it comes and they have to go, and then head off without waiting for someone unresponsive.

I don't think this is very ideal though. It kind of breaks the immersion in the scene...

People can be polite all they want, but it'd be nice if this were perhaps dropped from any helpfiles and not expected to happen all the time?

As one not playing a noble, I've never had any issues with the "ask leave to leave" thing.

1) If I'm travelling somewhere and happen to meet a noble mid-way, it's OOC assumed I'm just passing through (I as a player might not even notice the passing).

2) If I'm in the same large room/area and is not talking to the noble, I come and go as I please. This is realistic. Rather, I find it very strange when people throughout a large area always seem to immediately notice a new arrival and bow/greet them loudly, as well as ask leave of people who probably didn't even notice they were there. This irks me particularly in loud inns and taverns. Leaving such a place I don't ask for leave of those I didn't actually interact with.

3) If I'm in mid-conversation with a noble, I damn well ask for their leave respectfully or at least respectfully inform them that I have to go. This goes also for non-noble interaction. It's a clear sign of newbiness (and/or player disrespect) for a character to just stand up and leave in the middle of a scene they have been involved in, without at least doing so with a full emote. Yes, it has happened.

4) If there is an OOC emergency, I'm fine (as are all Players I know) with just saying in an osay that "Sorry, I really have to rush now". I've never seen anyone (noble or otherwise) react badly to such OOC reasons.

All in all, I think this is a moot point not equivalent to any in-game problem. Newbies DO tend to walk out of scenes in the middle of them - and for that reason they need to be told that they shouldn't, especially around nobles. This is a role playing game. Your actual stats don't really matter as much as your character does. Your character can't do exactly what you like it to do at any given moment? Play with it. Start to fidget where you stand. Look eagerly towards the exit. Get IC irritated. Take it as a chance for your character to come alive.

However, if new players do mis-interpret the "ask leave" thing it as a rule forcing them to OOC stay in-game longer than they can, then it should be re-worded, I guess. Re-worded. Not removed.
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Empheba

I offered my perception from a new player, reading and interpreting those documents as a new player. You make of that what you will. It's not a criticism of the nobles themselves, they've thus far been very pleasant and reasonable people. I just want to point out that, at the time I was first reading the document, I hadn't met any them.

Ultimately it comes down to one of two things:

1) Attracting new players

2) Maintaining a particular mentality among the player base

Those two have a region where they conflict with one another. Now you're adjusting the sliding scale of to what extent you value one over the other. And with that, i've said my peace on nobility.

Now, with regards to the guilds, after reading the updated file on the Brotherhood, it's now readily apparent why someone would take the risk of joining. I don't know how much bounties are utilized by the player base, but it's a neat nod to the criminal element. Gossip is for puffed up nobles and nancy-boy musicians. The Brotherhood does "business," baby!

If you want to be in business, you've got to pay the cost of doing business. Now that imminent threat of whatever dire fate "hard labor" actually entails isn't so off-putting. That red-letter warning could be taken as a friendly reminder that the Brotherhood is just hardcore like that.