It's come to my attention that sometimes GLs don't get along. Obviously there's a general power structure in place, but it's not really clear cut. From the immortal perspective, we want to ensure that conflict DOES exist in-game, which means, to a degree it's a good thing for GLs to not exactly see eye-to-eye.
The benefits are lost, however, when it becomes too extreme, no one thinks the GL in place is doing a good job, and no one is having fun. Those GLs need to be removed.
Right now, the only ways to remove a GL are:
1) execution/murder, eg, the GL's death
2) Immortal intervention,
3) getting their guild to do a vote of no confidence (2/3 the guild must want the GL removed), or
4) GL is convinced to resign
Though we've had questions about GLs being able to remove one another (Charmaine and Enakai have both asked if their authority allows them to fire GLs, for example), whereas I think it might be ICly possible, there's no real process or standards around that. Also, I'm not really sure it'd be appropriate for the game (not for the IC theme, mind) for any one player to have that much control over other players.
I'm particularly interested in hearing from the GLs who would be subjected to any additional means of removal, but all players are welcome to respond to this inquiry. So... What do you think is good and fair as an IC process? For the sake of having the best game playable, should GL removal change? If so, how? Also, what would make it reasonable in your eyes to have an imm remove a GL? If GLs
should be removable through IC means, who should be able to and how, and with what minimum standards?
Thank you for weighing in with your thoughts and opinions.
Guildleader Removals
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registerednuisance
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:47 pm
This is a seriously gray area.
I think if the 'issue' is OOC, imms should have power to remove the person.
If it's an IC issue where the person in power is severely hated by everyone, it makes sense that the Queen and her offspring could have them fired; however, I don't think it's so simple as 'you're fired' so much as perhaps there could be a GL tribunal, where one GL from each guild votes yae or nae for firing the person. It doesn't need to be in person, it could be collected by courier (since it's hard to get a lot of people on at once.) This isn't really thematically-relevant, since whoever has the power exercises the power, but might satisfy more since it's a game and not RL. Maybe the Queen or noble GL collects the votes from the other GLs.
The flaw above is covert GLs. I suppose they have to have their own revolutions/overthrows. The Queen can't fire the Librarian.
I think if the 'issue' is OOC, imms should have power to remove the person.
If it's an IC issue where the person in power is severely hated by everyone, it makes sense that the Queen and her offspring could have them fired; however, I don't think it's so simple as 'you're fired' so much as perhaps there could be a GL tribunal, where one GL from each guild votes yae or nae for firing the person. It doesn't need to be in person, it could be collected by courier (since it's hard to get a lot of people on at once.) This isn't really thematically-relevant, since whoever has the power exercises the power, but might satisfy more since it's a game and not RL. Maybe the Queen or noble GL collects the votes from the other GLs.
The flaw above is covert GLs. I suppose they have to have their own revolutions/overthrows. The Queen can't fire the Librarian.
I think it would largely depend on the guild, and where their authority comes from. But I believe there is already a structure and organisation in place for this, especially for the 'state' guilds, such as the Order, Reeves, Knights, and to a lesser extent the legal guilds such as the mercenaries, physicians, troubadours and merchants. That is the Royal Council (the helpfile for which needed to be updated when I last looked at it.), which contains the peers of the realm as a body for just this reason, amongst others.
The covert guilds are outside of it's writ, naturally. If the authorities (GL) within the guild are the problem, I could forsee it being difficult to evince change. For these, I'd be in support of the Imms having the mandate to reflect the theme stepping in in the form of the masses of the NPC guild members rising up.
For myself (as queen), I'd be in favor of either the nobles forming a bloc, or the peasants (under imm mandate as above) rising and forcing me to abdicate or defenestrating me.
Charm
The covert guilds are outside of it's writ, naturally. If the authorities (GL) within the guild are the problem, I could forsee it being difficult to evince change. For these, I'd be in support of the Imms having the mandate to reflect the theme stepping in in the form of the masses of the NPC guild members rising up.
For myself (as queen), I'd be in favor of either the nobles forming a bloc, or the peasants (under imm mandate as above) rising and forcing me to abdicate or defenestrating me.
Charm
I think the methods for -removing- GLs are all fine and good for now.
I hope this is not off-topic, but I think the methods for -applying- for GL-ship should be stricter. I'm not sure exactly how, but I think people who apply from now on should already have another character present and playing in the MUD (so that the imms can check that they're not idiots who flaunt OOC rules), as well as a more detailed, fleshed-out application. This is so that people really think about how their character would fit the role and what it entails.
I hope this is not off-topic, but I think the methods for -applying- for GL-ship should be stricter. I'm not sure exactly how, but I think people who apply from now on should already have another character present and playing in the MUD (so that the imms can check that they're not idiots who flaunt OOC rules), as well as a more detailed, fleshed-out application. This is so that people really think about how their character would fit the role and what it entails.
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Sephone
After a bit of discussion, and taking your ideas and opinions into account, we have decided the following option is also available if PC's would like to remove a Guild Leader:
1) a Guild Leader of another guild, or the same guild, can call for a vote of the Queen's Council, which is made up of all the Guild Leaders (1st and 2nd).
2) The Guild Leader instigating the vote will need to write up a proposition explaining why they believe a vote needs to be called against this person and send it to all the Guild Leaders.
3) The proposition must include a time and date for the council to meet and at least 2 OOC days notices must be given. This is to allow votes to be cast by those who cannot attend the meeting.
4) If you can’t attend the meeting and do not vote you then you will be classed as having abstained from the vote.
5) Votes must be sent to at least 2 other Guild Leaders who did not call the vote, as well as the GL calling the vote, to ensure that fixing does not occur.
6) A majority vote (made up of the GL's present and those who have posted early votes) must be reached to remove a Guild Leader. (eg. there are 10 guild leaders, only 6 can attend and 2 vote before hand. 5 people must vote yes to remove the GL).
Please note, the 4 options Kinaed posted early are still available, though the Imms will only step in when the circumstances are extreme and cannot be dealt with IC.
Any questions, please see Kinead of myself.
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Sephone
1) a Guild Leader of another guild, or the same guild, can call for a vote of the Queen's Council, which is made up of all the Guild Leaders (1st and 2nd).
2) The Guild Leader instigating the vote will need to write up a proposition explaining why they believe a vote needs to be called against this person and send it to all the Guild Leaders.
3) The proposition must include a time and date for the council to meet and at least 2 OOC days notices must be given. This is to allow votes to be cast by those who cannot attend the meeting.
4) If you can’t attend the meeting and do not vote you then you will be classed as having abstained from the vote.
5) Votes must be sent to at least 2 other Guild Leaders who did not call the vote, as well as the GL calling the vote, to ensure that fixing does not occur.
6) A majority vote (made up of the GL's present and those who have posted early votes) must be reached to remove a Guild Leader. (eg. there are 10 guild leaders, only 6 can attend and 2 vote before hand. 5 people must vote yes to remove the GL).
Please note, the 4 options Kinaed posted early are still available, though the Imms will only step in when the circumstances are extreme and cannot be dealt with IC.
Any questions, please see Kinead of myself.
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Sephone
I'd just like to clarify one tiny bit of the option spoken of by Sephone - this is done entirely ICly. If a GL writes a proposal (to the monarch, not other GLs), they themselves are requesting the monarch call the council, not actually congregating it themselves (as my understanding is that only the monarch can call the council together ICly). Also, if the vote goes towards a removal, ICly, it's the monarch's prerogative to execute the results. Essentially, this is intended as "what is required to green-light" a removal of one GL by the monarch ICly (to answer Charmaine and Enakai's questions).
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