This idea actually came up over the OOC discussion. Kinaed mentioned IP on the Noble Land thread and that kind of jogged my memory. Anywho, I'd like to get people's opinions on it since it'd be a pretty new thing. Decided not to post it in suggestions because I don't think it's something that will be put in quick, or even in the 'suggestion' format. More a wish, and then a discussion of how we can organize that wish. Wait, is that an idea? Anyways!
1. Allow bards a system where they can negatively, or positively, DIRECTLY affect a person's Influence Points (IP).
2. Make this system based off another system - one of 'tavern ownership' (not real ownership) - where the bards must invest a certain amount of IP to 'stake a claim' on a tavern. Basically they spend the IP and that tavern becomes a beacon of their personal influence. Everybody in that tavern knows them, probably because they play there often.
Then, depending on how many taverns a person owns, they can launch attacks against other people's IP points, to negatively or positively affect them.
Bardic Warfare
You know, both this and your other idea are really making me think we need to turn our attention back toward developing asset/domain systems, at least in the most skeletal sense.
Asset systems we've discussed before would let you own things like farms, businesses, etc. that would provide you silver and/or IP on a regular basis.
We've also previously discussed something like a faction system for Lithmore with certain spheres of influence (financial, social, etc whatever) that unlocked commands/perks for you as you rose in that sphere of influence. I think that'd simulate this very well; people in specific guilds could get a leg up in various spheres, and this bardic warfare idea could be a command unlocked in the social sphere.
Asset systems we've discussed before would let you own things like farms, businesses, etc. that would provide you silver and/or IP on a regular basis.
We've also previously discussed something like a faction system for Lithmore with certain spheres of influence (financial, social, etc whatever) that unlocked commands/perks for you as you rose in that sphere of influence. I think that'd simulate this very well; people in specific guilds could get a leg up in various spheres, and this bardic warfare idea could be a command unlocked in the social sphere.
I agree - and I like the ideas.
It just occured to me that the problem with the domain systems is that it's focused outside of Lithmore. I want to find ways for people to utilize influence in-game.
Honestly, I'm thinking of setting up a reputation system where people can spend IP points to tag one another with various types of reputations, from feared to loved - but I worry about how that might go over to people receiving reputations they don't want or how the system might be used.
In the meantime, I do like the ability to "war" with IP - I just want to keep it in the current grid more than expanding outside of the grid.
In that vein, however, I do think there are a few things I *do* want to expand the current domain system to do - that is natural events, noble income based on population, and actions nobles/people can do to influence the size of domains (and hence a noble's income). My fear is if we focus on this too much, we'll become a noble-centric game.
It just occured to me that the problem with the domain systems is that it's focused outside of Lithmore. I want to find ways for people to utilize influence in-game.
Honestly, I'm thinking of setting up a reputation system where people can spend IP points to tag one another with various types of reputations, from feared to loved - but I worry about how that might go over to people receiving reputations they don't want or how the system might be used.
In the meantime, I do like the ability to "war" with IP - I just want to keep it in the current grid more than expanding outside of the grid.
In that vein, however, I do think there are a few things I *do* want to expand the current domain system to do - that is natural events, noble income based on population, and actions nobles/people can do to influence the size of domains (and hence a noble's income). My fear is if we focus on this too much, we'll become a noble-centric game.
The concept of noble domains might be better hashed out in the 'noble lands' thread. With anything like this, it should be taken slowly, and step by step. Introduce a little bit of the system instead of a whole crapload, so then if something breaks or doesn't work out, Az only has to fix a little bit.
Implementing a bardic war system, or something similar and based around Lithmore (basically if you do things out of sight, they'll probably be out of mind), to see how people using IP more offensively goes would be cool.
Implementing a bardic war system, or something similar and based around Lithmore (basically if you do things out of sight, they'll probably be out of mind), to see how people using IP more offensively goes would be cool.
Player of: Alexander ab Courtland
So bards have an IP system where they can affect others IPs (assumedly, non-bards) but non-bards don't get to play into the war system? It doesn't sound balanced or fair. As a tavern owner, I'd want to know why I can't play into the system, or am I expected to go outside the system (can going to the Poet Knight get you kicked out? rumor milling? or just saying I'll gut you if you come into my tavern again?)
I think something more generalized for the city itself is probably a better idea, then everyone could play into it. It'd work right now because there are a lot of bards, but this really isn't always the case because of our playerbase size.
I think something more generalized for the city itself is probably a better idea, then everyone could play into it. It'd work right now because there are a lot of bards, but this really isn't always the case because of our playerbase size.
That's why I'd favor a system that looked at spheres of influence like finance, society, etc. That's entirely Lithmore-based and allows for people in the right guilds to get a boost without closing participation to people who aren't in the right guilds. I think this works better than a reputation system because you buy a reputation more organically.
Probably something like the GL barometers, where you start at neutral and can buy your way up, with up having perks/opening commands and down potentially having downsides depending on the sphere.
Kin - re: assets and out of Lithmore domains, I'd just like to see a really basic thing to start where assets gave you income, and save the fiddly stuff for the sphere system. I do feel we could get a lot more out of focusing on the in-LIthmore stuff.
Probably something like the GL barometers, where you start at neutral and can buy your way up, with up having perks/opening commands and down potentially having downsides depending on the sphere.
Kin - re: assets and out of Lithmore domains, I'd just like to see a really basic thing to start where assets gave you income, and save the fiddly stuff for the sphere system. I do feel we could get a lot more out of focusing on the in-LIthmore stuff.
Pretty much. The reason for this is because bards, as discussed in the last OOC convo, don't have much on the code side to enforce being well liked and nearly on par with gentry/nobility, socially. Thieves have stealing, Knights can bash your head in, the Order the power of the Inquisition, and Bards...wimple wrote:So bards have an IP system where they can affect others IPs (assumedly, non-bards) but non-bards don't get to play into the war system?
Well, they have to make their own luck. Which originally I'm fine with. But I do think this would be a clever way to give bards more power, without it being overpowered or unbalanced at all in comparison to the power of the other guilds.
ICly, Bards are the guys and gals that people listen to. They can actively spread rumors with a fierceness unmatched, they can tarnish somebody's reputation with one catchy song, and they know quite a few things. For the average person, there is still the rumor system that can be used to attempt to tarnish somebody's reputation. But Bards know the crowds of influence, and can manipulate them with their charisma, skill, and wit.
Oh hey, we should make charisma attached to this, whatever way we go.
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In regards, Dice, now that I think about it I'm much more inclined to individual systems rather than a whole blanket system. There is a lot of unique socio-economic classes that rise, due to GL positions, and I don't think a blanket system will give each one the attention it deserves. Mostly I'm worried that if a blanket system is used, it'll be hard as hell to add stuff onto for specific people - because certainly, with either system, you'd want to make the way bards, nobles, gentry, and GLs interact with it different from the rest.
Have to get off to lunch with the girly, but I'll be thinking about solid pros and cons of each. Obviously the first pro for the blanket system is that it's a single thing.
Player of: Alexander ab Courtland
Alright, sorry for that last post! I've definitely been a bit brainless today, and I apologize for trying to make coherent arguments in that state. Keeping it up for reference, though, in case any good ideas do come out of it.
I do like the idea of a blanket reputation system, or a deeper influence system. However, I will stick with my reservation; that I'm worried if we do a single system we'll lose some of the unique interactions that nobles, bards, and different classes might have with the world.
One other thing though is how exactly would this come into play? Dice, you talked about certain perks and disadvantages, depending on which way you were in the 'spheres of influence'. Aside from participation in an 'IP War', there are few ways that I can think of to make the system relevant for all players. If we had mobs for hire (I forgot what Kinky called those, but discussions on them and their affects are in a different thread) perhaps this could play in to how many mobs you could get on your side, how the vNPC world reacts to you in RPAs (though that's a small thing, definitely), and if we do a system of land ownership which I've touched on in another thread, it could definitely play a part in that too.
But for the most part, a system for all requires more systems to make it relevant, whereas something just for the bards allows it to be guild-oriented. As for the worry that there might not be bards to use it, that's something that we worry about with all guilds, I'd assume. 'There may not be enough thieves to take advantage of any thief skills' or 'There may not be enough Orderites to take advantage of any theme we work on'. I wouldn't want lack of players to stop people from trying to flesh out the world though.
A reputation system, again, would be nice but we'd need to make it relevant. For the most part people would generally ignore whatever 'good, bad, or ugly' tag you had on your character's reputation and go off of their own, individual assumptions. It has to be something that, somewhere, is supported by coded interactions.
TL;DR - Whereas something to challenge peoples' IP with, and affect it positively or negatively would be good as a smaller guild skill, I think a much larger system with more applications would be needed for it to get any use from the larger audience.
I do like the idea of a blanket reputation system, or a deeper influence system. However, I will stick with my reservation; that I'm worried if we do a single system we'll lose some of the unique interactions that nobles, bards, and different classes might have with the world.
One other thing though is how exactly would this come into play? Dice, you talked about certain perks and disadvantages, depending on which way you were in the 'spheres of influence'. Aside from participation in an 'IP War', there are few ways that I can think of to make the system relevant for all players. If we had mobs for hire (I forgot what Kinky called those, but discussions on them and their affects are in a different thread) perhaps this could play in to how many mobs you could get on your side, how the vNPC world reacts to you in RPAs (though that's a small thing, definitely), and if we do a system of land ownership which I've touched on in another thread, it could definitely play a part in that too.
But for the most part, a system for all requires more systems to make it relevant, whereas something just for the bards allows it to be guild-oriented. As for the worry that there might not be bards to use it, that's something that we worry about with all guilds, I'd assume. 'There may not be enough thieves to take advantage of any thief skills' or 'There may not be enough Orderites to take advantage of any theme we work on'. I wouldn't want lack of players to stop people from trying to flesh out the world though.
A reputation system, again, would be nice but we'd need to make it relevant. For the most part people would generally ignore whatever 'good, bad, or ugly' tag you had on your character's reputation and go off of their own, individual assumptions. It has to be something that, somewhere, is supported by coded interactions.
TL;DR - Whereas something to challenge peoples' IP with, and affect it positively or negatively would be good as a smaller guild skill, I think a much larger system with more applications would be needed for it to get any use from the larger audience.
Player of: Alexander ab Courtland
I'm wary of guild-specific things, but I'm actively playing a character that stays outside of guilds. That's supposed to be an option for PCs and should still be fun for us. Bards essentially being able to control rumors (they have or should have massive influence there) and then getting extra control on being able to directly impact other people's IP WITHOUT them being able to do anything about it? That's massively unbalanced.
There is a reputation system in the game. It's called support. If support really isn't working (and from a non-guild position, I get one support, so I really don't feel that it is), I'd rather see that changed, IMHO. Support *could* lead to a lot more back-biting if it were more relevant (and I played with it much more when I was a GL and two or three slots, as a non-guild, it's pretty much just auto-set).
There is a reputation system in the game. It's called support. If support really isn't working (and from a non-guild position, I get one support, so I really don't feel that it is), I'd rather see that changed, IMHO. Support *could* lead to a lot more back-biting if it were more relevant (and I played with it much more when I was a GL and two or three slots, as a non-guild, it's pretty much just auto-set).
Sure they can do something about it, if someone would insist on badmouthing me IRL, i would either beat the crap out of them or sue them for slander (or get someone else to beat the crap out of them while i sue for slander, depends on my mood). Especially if I were a pissy noble.wimple wrote:I'm wary of guild-specific things, but I'm actively playing a character that stays outside of guilds. That's supposed to be an option for PCs and should still be fun for us. Bards essentially being able to control rumors (they have or should have massive influence there) and then getting extra control on being able to directly impact other people's IP WITHOUT them being able to do anything about it? That's massively unbalanced.
There is a reputation system in the game. It's called support. If support really isn't working (and from a non-guild position, I get one support, so I really don't feel that it is), I'd rather see that changed, IMHO. Support *could* lead to a lot more back-biting if it were more relevant (and I played with it much more when I was a GL and two or three slots, as a non-guild, it's pretty much just auto-set).
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