Experience and Incentives

[Gavin]

Hi all,

I won't make the meeting this week (as I rarely do) because of work, but I actually wanted to toss a comment into the virtual ring in the hope that it's discussed.

I've noticed that RPXP gain has been slashed significantly. I've confirmed this with others, and I've also confirmed that it's not a bug. Moreover, although RPXP gain has been seriously reduced, there's been no change in the XP cost of skills themselves.

If this is a precursor to a new paradigm, that's fine: the only point of the XP system is to add a mathematical framework that defines how long one must RP before achieving code-based improvement, and earning 5 XP per scene rather than 500 is fine, provided skills are concomitantly reduced in cost (e.g., a rank of riding now costs 1 XP rather than 100). But that's not what I see.

I suspect that what this effectively does is the following:

• - PCs won't try hobbyist skills, including net-positive ones like city lore.
  - Alt creation is disincentivized. I won't be making any alts: I can't afford them.
  - Already overpriced XP sinks, such as increasing stats, are now effectively impossible.

I've already said this before, but a rank in city lore is not the same as a rank in fire magic or sword, but the "RP time to improvement," measured in XP, is the same. I'm trying to figure out what the rationale behind this was, and if it's that the average PC was advancing too quickly (a premise with which I disagree), there are ways to handle that.

Anyway, call me crazy. But, thoughts?

[Onyxsoulle]

I actually thought that was just a bug that was being worked on. Did not know it was intentional. So yeah if rpxp gain is reduced, I too would like to see skill costs reduced. Admittedly, I have 3 toons, but can usually only play one at a time, so I have 3 toons pulling from 1 toon's rpxp when I pool a skill(not complaining about the alt thing, I made them, I knew xp would be scattered). After rping for about an hour last night, I saw how much(little) xp I had gained. and I was already low on xp prior to the 'bug'. Then I had 1 skill rank up, it wiped out half of my xp. Which means on 1 toon, I -might- be able to rank up 1 skill once every few days after rping, and that's just the low ranks, higher ranks will cost more and take longer. Given how much I can rp as of late, I really don't want to spend a whole month of saving my rpxp just to be able to get that last rank in a skill I want to GM.

[Leech]

Well... how quickly do you think somebody should be able to GM a skill?

[Gavin]

Well... how quickly do you think somebody should be able to GM a skill?

You've identified the important question here, Leech. That's what it all boils down to.

But it's a hard question to unpack, because it leads to follow-ons:

• - Should some skills be easier to master than others?
  - Should some skills (city lore, for cryin' out loud!) be free?
  - Should only time online, spent RPing, "count" towards skill gain?
  - Should someone be able to progress and develop their character through other means?

I can tell you this much right now: I work crazy hours. I can't type as quickly as others, nor do I have the time or energy to hang out in a tavern. When I RP, I try to go for quality over quantity. I try to facilitate others' RP. I try to dangle storyberries from the Tree of Plot for others as much as I can. But the point is, I try to make the most of my limited time on TI. I know others definitely do too!

[Leech]

MUDs in general have been trying to answer this question for years. Hack 'n slashers do it by how many monsters you kill, some MUDs do it by the ol' grind, and some are app in. I don't think there is a clear answer and if you say 'Well, I want it faster because I have limited time,' then I'll say, 'What about those people who can sit on the MUD all day?'

I don't want to see a dozen demi-god mages running around throwing lightning balls, no matter how dark their back story, and that's what I feel we run the risk of if we speed it up any. Really, I'm fine with how it is. You know why?

QP. I know that at any moment, all I have to do to get QP - a renewable source of XP - is give to the game in some way, whether through writing helpfiles, books, or drawing people into plots. I didn't even notice it, but from blogging, showing up OOC meetings, and holding one little event I rounded up about 20 QP over half a month. I wasn't even -trying-. If I -really- wanted to rack 'em up, say for a character, I could finish the mini-book I've been working on, write a few more region helpfiles (check out HELP VOSTOCK!), and start another blog for Reid.

I like the fact that to get something, I have to give something, y'know?

[Gavin]

MUDs in general have been trying to answer this question for years. Hack 'n slashers do it by how many monsters you kill, some MUDs do it by the ol' grind, and some are app in. I don't think there is a clear answer and if you say 'Well, I want it faster because I have limited time,' then I'll say, 'What about those people who can sit on the MUD all day?'

I don't want to see a dozen demi-god mages running around throwing lightning balls, no matter how dark their back story, and that's what I feel we run the risk of if we speed it up any. Really, I'm fine with how it is. You know why?

QP. I know that at any moment, all I have to do to get QP - a renewable source of XP - is give to the game in some way, whether through writing helpfiles, books, or drawing people into plots. I didn't even notice it, but from blogging, showing up OOC meetings, and holding one little event I rounded up about 20 QP over half a month. I wasn't even -trying-. If I -really- wanted to rack 'em up, say for a character, I could finish the mini-book I've been working on, write a few more region helpfiles (check out HELP VOSTOCK!), and start another blog for Reid.

I like the fact that to get something, I have to give something, y'know?

Two points:

First, I was fine with how it was. I don't like how it is now (i.e., how it is with the most recent change).

Second, I personally detest QP and wish they'd go away. The idea of acquiring this "currency" for earning recommendations for RP is fine, but I've always hated how that same "currency" is earned for... being logged on when TI crashes. But if we have them, and if QP are now the "new XP," so to speak, then the rates might need to be adjusted.

Say you earned 40 QP in a month. That's 8000 XP. You know what that buys you? Possibly a few ranks in a skill and raising a stat once. Obviously, there are permutations (you could get a few low-level ranks in a bunch of skills, sure), but the point is: if TI's paradigm is now 'you must RP in public with lots of people and supplement this with earning QP', then I suppose that's fine, but I don't think you can feasibly make that change without identifying whether it squares with the cost of skills, stats, and so forth.

[wimple]

I've got nothing against rewarding people for giving to the game, but if that's the new shift, then it's not really playing a game anymore. I want to interact with people in the game. I don't want to write a character blog. Nor do I read them. They don't add to the experience for me and, if anything, deter from it. I know I'm probably in the minority on that. If I wanted to do something like that, I'd keep an IC diary in the game, which is something I've done with characters before. That's something that's actually IC and people can interact with, not something that's purely OOC to add flavor to a website or help people build up the back stories of their characters.

My experience trying to GM skills (without an alt) from when the shift happened from the old grand master level to the new was that it was difficult. I had to be in the top ten RPer category to make it even remotely possible. The XP sink was too much. I do have an alt now, but they have skills that need work, so it doesn't really add to my base of what I'm able to do.

Like Gavin, I don't really care for QP. I've always felt that the way it's implemented in the game is very much like a popularity contest. More so when it was award, but still in its current form. If the new shift is that XP is meant to be gained from QP, then it'd be great for that to be expressed by staff.

[Applesauce]

- Alt creation is disincentivized. I won't be making any alts: I can't afford them.

I fear the opposite: people with tons of throwaway cyan alts. People will flock to them for the RPXP bonus. They'll sit and chatter for a while, spend the XP on their "real" chars, then delete or stop playing the cyan when it becomes established. Rinse and repeat.

Basically it's now a grind, like farming any MMO endgame currency. That might be the goal, actually. People are probably using think a lot more, and emoting faster, which I think have been stated desires from the imms for a long while.

IMO, it seems to have become more of a "get the RPXP" game rather than a "tell the story" game. But it's only been a few days, we'll see what happens down the road.

[Leech]

As hit upon in the OOC chat, we'll be getting some clarification on the issue when staff have some more numbers available. Until then, I thought this might interest people - if you haven't done this on your own, it's a good thing to look at for budgeting your next big character.

Inept: 600
Unskilled: 840/1440
Capable: 1400/2840
Competent: 1620/4460
Proficient: 3600/8060
Adept: 5460/13520
Master: 9620/23140
GM: 1000/24140

The numbers on the left represent how much XP you'll spend in that rank grouping (I.E. you'll need to spend 1400 XP total to progress on to competent rank once at capable.). The numbers on the right represent how much XP in total you'll need to spend to get beyond that rank.

This might come in extra handy when staff releases their own numbers.

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Basically it's now a grind, like farming any MMO endgame currency. That might be the goal, actually. People are probably using think a lot more, and emoting faster, which I think have been stated desires from the imms for a long while.

In every game you're going to have your grinders and twinks, only in it to get the best character. No matter what system, balanced or not, this isn't going to change. Even with the other system we had that. Unfortunately, autowarn now makes it a lot easier, but people will usually find a way to do it no matter what.

This actually leads into my next little bit...

I've got nothing against rewarding people for giving to the game, but if that's the new shift, then it's not really playing a game anymore. I want to interact with people in the game.

I agree, and what I should have said instead of 'I like the fact that I have to give something to get something' is that I like the fact that I can turn to it as another source of XP. I like being able to describe my characters hometown in a helpfile and getting rewarded for it, and it directly adds to the creation of a story, helps me throw flair into boring scenes, etc.

You do get QP for interacting with people, though perhaps not as much as you should, and perhaps never for the right reasons - but in a system that is based on rewarding people for adding to the story of a story based game I don't see how you can avoid flaws.

More-so defending QPs here as something to be proud of than addressing the issues of balancing, but hey... I haven't been in a scene for like, two weeks? So it's easy for me to say 'I like things how they are' because I've only seen a limited view of the current RPXP model.

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Edit:

Hypothetical, here - Let's say on average a player gets about seven hours of MUD time a week. That's normal, right? Most MUDders I know tend to cram their MUD time into single day events of like three hours straight RPing. Anyways, seven hours a week, and let's say two hours a scene - so roughly three scenes a week. How long do you think it should take this person to GM a skill? A month? Two months? Is this person an active player, or no? Would ten hours a week be 'active', not in code eyes as the current definition is, but in the eyes of other players?

Keep in mind that GMing a skill requires nearly 25,000 exp.

[wimple]

I get that people like doing those things, Leech, but if the shift is to get XP not from actual RP, but from OOC stuff, then... I don't really see the point. I'm not going to be able to advance my character. Superfluous helpfiles don't get me excited. I don't care for the blogs. Etc. I have never used QP. I guess I could start converting it to XP if I wanted to, but as Gavin said, the conversion rates haven't been adjusted. I figure, save it for major RP assistance or character renames, so it's used for drama in the game, right? When it was the award system, I just never had any, because I always gave it away.

If you're factoring in XP costs for GMing skills, you probably need to factor in stat adjustment, too.