Individual Piety

[Rabek]

People used to play plenty of priests. We had the preach command for piety then, but it was basically a non-issue. So if this isn't the reason people stopped, what is?

Speaking as someone who has played quite a few high-ranking Orderites, I think I know a few reasons.

One, being a GL is miserable work. It's a strain on free time and the enjoyment of the game. Especially if you don't have a 2nd GL to offload some of the work onto. We used to have a GL for the priest side and a GL for the Inquisition side. Now they're merged into one role. While the Inquisitorial side was always the worst, this still increases the GL's work load which makes it harder to keep one.

Two, the staff have been consistently supporting unthematic GLs in bullying lower ranked members of the Order into acting in similarly unthematic ways, even directly contradicting numerous helpfiles in the process. This makes it far less enjoyable to be an Orderite that isn't a GL. It's why I don't play Orderites anymore myself.

So being a GL sucks, and being a priest sucks, so what's left?

This, not the lack of unique mechanics, is why I feel the Order is underplayed. It's the only thing that's changed from the old days when they were played frequently. It's also why I keep advocating the staff be willing to take a stand in dealing with GLs acting against theme files, rather than support them blindly regardless of their actions.

[Puciek]

People used to play plenty of priests. We had the preach command for piety then, but it was basically a non-issue. So if this isn't the reason people stopped, what is?

Speaking as someone who has played quite a few high-ranking Orderites, I think I know a few reasons.

One, being a GL is miserable work. It's a strain on free time and the enjoyment of the game. Especially if you don't have a 2nd GL to offload some of the work onto. We used to have a GL for the priest side and a GL for the Inquisition side. Now they're merged into one role. While the Inquisitorial side was always the worst, this still increases the GL's work load which makes it harder to keep one.

Two, the staff have been consistently supporting unthematic GLs in bullying lower ranked members of the Order into acting in similarly unthematic ways, even directly contradicting numerous helpfiles in the process. This makes it far less enjoyable to be an Orderite that isn't a GL. It's why I don't play Orderites anymore myself.

So being a GL sucks, and being a priest sucks, so what's left?

This, not the lack of unique mechanics, is why I feel the Order is underplayed. It's the only thing that's changed from the old days when they were played frequently. It's also why I keep advocating the staff be willing to take a stand in dealing with GLs acting against theme files, rather than support them blindly regardless of their actions.

Kinky made it clear last or previous OOC chat that they do crack down on unthematic GLs if have to, but this must come from players to them; as always they don't spy on RP. I think that was always the stance, but never really got into that dispute myself, as because of GL powers, they must also uphold the theme.

[Rothgar]

Unfortunately, piety is dead and gone. I love the suggestions, I do, but it's gone, and it's not coming back. We've been told in no uncertain terms that it won't be coming back - though, to be honest, we had that conversation so long ago that I don't even recall the reason. I'm sure it had something to do with powergaming, and I actually unironically sympathize with it.

Y'all can go back and forth on this all day long, but in the end, it's in the service of naught. Playing a clergy member is arguably some of the most soul-sucking and worst RP you can be involved in, and basically everyone that apps into the role disappears in one way or another. Yes, the Order makes no sense, even on very basic levels. Yes, worshiping the Lord of the Springs makes no sense. Yes, Magery is clearly superior in every way. But this is the theme, and theme is immobile and unarguable.

[Kinaed]

I haven't read all replies, but I read the initial post and some of the replies. A few thoughts:

- In general, I like many parts of this suggestion, and will talk to staff about implementing some of these. In particular, I like the XP bonus given out gor a sermon or a confession as a command. I am less keen on the various stat bonuses or protection from magic. I'm neutral on the teaching bonus. I'd love to brainstorm more ideas to get people to act like Davites (or whatever their religion is).

- Vox and Puciek are correct that the reason thr original piety bit the dust is that it was a private stat that people got high, got a bonus, and it had absolutely no relation to their IC behavior. Therefore, whatever we implement needs to be peer-checked. Eg, a sermon happens one person to many, so many people see if a sermon actually happened. Piety as a score on the scoresheet didn't make anyone accountable to RPing that way.

To extend that thought, what I think I might do is also give people the ability to award one another Piety Points. Those points can give their friends bonuses and also reputations based on what kind of piety their peers think they've demonstrated. Give the Order the ability to check piety, and people the ability to see their own reputaion in terms of what people think their religious alignment is and why. Potentially let them use IP to change their piety reputation if they want/need to.

[Voxumo]

To extend that thought, what I think I might do is also give people the ability to award one another Piety Points. Those points can give their friends bonuses and also reputations based on what kind of piety their peers think they've demonstrated. Give the Order the ability to check piety, and people the ability to see their own reputaion in terms of what people think their religious alignment is and why. Potentially let them use IP to change their piety reputation if they want/need to.

I see a few issues with that idea... First off if it's something that can be awarded to other players by players, what's to stop mages from just getting together, particularly the manus, and awarding it out the yinyang to their fellow mages? Unless of course it's a system where staff must approve it like recommends, then my prior concern is moot.

The other concern is this becoming an ooc abused thing... Afterall I don't want the order knocking at my door because they have a command that sees I swing towards doubting them, even if I icly haven't done anything to suggest it, I just am not collecting piety points.

[Rhothrian]

But what I would love this idea for is a machine fueling the heretical religions. Now that I would absolutely love, and very much in the shape you've presented (although without atheism and with religion-accurate commands), because that would put sense and purpose behind playing such characters, where if you are unable to practice your religion it hurts, thus you will be actively looking to recruit people into it, and risking your neck by doing all the fun stuff you need to do to reinforce it (at risk of being caught). For that I absolutely love it.

Religion should be religion in regard to a system. The difference would be in the individual practices and beliefs. Creating a believe system only for heretics not only puts the order in an even worse situation than before it also defeats the original intention of seeing more order priests being played due to incentivizing with their own unique mechanics that make IC sense and would be fun to see in play.

As priests, I might have a shell of an idea, something about priests and city metrics, maybe they could work together with people (make them part of plots to offer spiritual guidance etc) which would not only boost the plots but also piety itself (double bonus!). This would give priests a strong purpose, would be sought by all sorts of type (imagine thieves trying to corrupt a priest to bless their thieving enterprises,) etc. Will need to mindmap it and will probably make a separate post about it, typing this exactly as it pops into my head to not forget right now .

I like where you are going with this. City metrics will become increasingly important to more players due to the fact that the fluctuation has a direct reflection on how much their assets will be worth, especially gentry and nobles.

What if sermon functioned in a similar manner as a rumor for the priest. They could select a theme based on some current event or whatever Erra Patter tie in they wished to speak on that day and people could interact as they wished to. The difference is that real names of the speaker as well as people who respond are released to the public and would bestow a onetime award to piety for participation as well as counting toward the influence total for that week for the speaking priest. This would simulate the priest and congregation sitting in the same space IC without forcing someone to sit through an actual event. In addition to the influence and piety awards the sermon could even act as a vote toward an appropriate city metric to the theme, flushed out during the construction of the sermon as a free vote. Now you have a situation where the powers that be will start seeking out members of the clergy for support, which opens up opportunities for other RP avenues.

“Fund our southside food drive and we will see about talking to the merchant’s guild to lower the taxes on certain imported goods.”

“Support our community outreach and education program to improve race relations and we will see if we can summon up funds for your city infrastructure plan."

This, not the lack of unique mechanics, is why I feel the Order is underplayed. It's the only thing that's changed from the old days when they were played frequently. It's also why I keep advocating the staff be willing to take a stand in dealing with GLs acting against theme files, rather than support them blindly regardless of their actions.

That is unfortunate if true and would explain some things. However, without unique mechanics the priest has the feel of a low-ranking politician with very little influence and back-up. as opposed to a member of the clergy that is actually out performing rituals that people want to be a part of. Also, until recently the knights and order were for all intent and purposes in a cold war with one another. I’m not saying your assessment is wrong but some of the things suggested would make playing the role more enjoyable and will probably be easier to achieve than convincing staff that they’re wrong.

[Starstarfish]

One of the current problems with playing priests is played out on this thread. OOCly, people consider attending such functions boring and a waste of their time and will freely say so. That confession is a risk (true) and well ... speaking to someone might not be able to help, so why bother. I'm not sure any amount of new code will help to the degree it could if people's attitude doesn't shift.

I'd happily schedule regular Mass if I thought people would attend and enjoy it, but a lot of the time when I bring it up the reaction is lukewarm at best.

Further, our priests shouldn't all need to be Jedi Knights (we already have Knights) with impressive combat skills, however, they become targets for deadly threats. Making an Orderite in general means being a target for "bad guys." I think at times that limits what sort of backgrounds/builds people might feel goes well with the role.

[Rothgar]

One of the current problems with playing priests is played out on this thread. OOCly, people consider attending such functions boring and a waste of their time and will freely say so. That confession is a risk (true) and well ... speaking to someone might not be able to help, so why bother. I'm not sure any amount of new code will help to the degree it could if people's attitude doesn't shift.

I'd happily schedule regular Mass if I thought people would attend and enjoy it, but a lot of the time when I bring it up the reaction is lukewarm at best.

Further, our priests shouldn't all need to be Jedi Knights (we already have Knights) with impressive combat skills, however, they become targets for deadly threats. Making an Orderite in general means being a target for "bad guys." I think at times that limits what sort of backgrounds/builds people might feel goes well with the role.

+1 to this.

[Puciek]

I can't count that to that high how many times the order was attacked in places where such attack should be borderline unthinkable - like the inquisitor's office in the cathedral or middle of town hall etc. And that absolutely is part of the problem, that order has none of the advantages, they are not even safe in their sanctuary, it's like playing a toothless victim.

[Rhothrian]

One of the current problems with playing priests is played out on this thread. OOCly, people consider attending such functions boring and a waste of their time and will freely say so. That confession is a risk (true) and well ... speaking to someone might not be able to help, so why bother. I'm not sure any amount of new code will help to the degree it could if people's attitude doesn't shift.

If there were coded benefits to confession do you think it would be a different story then? No one in their right ooc mind would reveal something so damaging that it threatens the reputation or life of their character, unless priming them for death and a reroll or liquidation. The would come with fabricated lesser sins that would still foster RP in the penance or actual sins of a nature punishable with less severe means. I think attitude would indeed shift if this were the case.

I'd happily schedule regular Mass if I thought people would attend and enjoy it, but a lot of the time when I bring it up the reaction is lukewarm at best.

What would say to a mass system that was handled in a similar manner as a rumor posting as mentioned in the above?

Further, our priests shouldn't all need to be Jedi Knights (we already have Knights) with impressive combat skills, however, they become targets for deadly threats. Making an Orderite in general means being a target for "bad guys." I think at times that limits what sort of backgrounds/builds people might feel goes well with the role.

I would agree to a certain point but what I suggested is the making of a support role that focuses on healing the mind and spirit through religious rituals and the power of suggestion. A highly religious skilled priest should make everyone, "feel" better and improve performance through enhancing morale with these rituals and practices. It wasn't a suggestion toward making a combat machine. What if Wellbeing affected the religious skills only if not replenished through prayer, sermons or confession? That way if you wanted to slack off with religious practices as you may currently and not participate in the system you wouldn't have to. My issue with priests is that they have always seemed like administrative clerks as opposed to spiritual leaders that people actually wanted to interact with.